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Lutz
Pharaoh
Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3824
Location: Berlin, Germany
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 Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 11:36 am Post subject: Video : Queen Nefertiti's Artist - The Tomb of Thutmose |
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The publication of this tomb in Saqqara by Alain Zivie is as far as I know only in French available. But on 17th October in 2013 Zivie gave a lession at Harvard University. This lesson was in English and recorded...
Discovering the Egyptian Queen Nefertiti's Artist - The Tomb of Thutmose at Saqqara
| Quote: | | In December 1912, German excavators found the famous painted bust of Queen Nefertiti in the workshop of an ancient artist named Thutmose. Until now, this iconic masterpiece was only dubiously linked to him. The recent discovery of Thutmose's tomb at Saqqara, however, has changed this thinking. Alain Zivie reveals why Thutmose may be a true "Egyptian Michelangelo." |
Greetings, Lutz.
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SidneyF
Banned
Joined: 16 Sep 2011
Posts: 431
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 2:01 am Post subject: Re: Video : Queen Nefertiti's Artist - The Tomb of Thutmose |
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| This is a very interesting lecture, indeed, but my jaw dropped a little when Zivie seemed to equate Maia with Meritaten! In one of his books, I recall Zivie as having written that he thought the real name of Maia was "Mut", written in a kind of abbreviated fashion as "mt". Now it looks like Zivie has written a book in French about Maia but--wow--I don't know. Maia, in her tomb, is shown wearing the typical hairstyle of a nurse for that period--wig tied back with a ribbon. Why would Meritaten, a princess and a queen, want to be depicted like that? |
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Robson
Priest
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 998
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| Lutz once pointed out here about Maïa's modius which makes her quite special, and is an important part in Zivie's hypothesis. |
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SidneyF
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Joined: 16 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Robson wrote: | | Lutz once pointed out here about Maïa's modius which makes her quite special, and is an important part in Zivie's hypothesis. |
I don't doubt Maia was quite special but her "modius" has a cone stuck in the top of it, which hardly agrees with how queenly headdresses are usually represented. Otherwise, Maia is shown just with a flower or flowers on the top of her head or just the incense cone without any holder. What would be the point of a modius, if that was what it was supposed to be, without an uraeus?
Suddenly, I have seen there was an entire thread about this theory of Zivie here [because it was revived by Lutz] going back to 2010. The theory must have dropped like a stone in a well because I can't recall hearing anything about it. But now, even without having read the book, Maia as Meritaten makes no evident sense to me. For one thing, people did not commission their own tombs. There weren't any contractors offering to do tomb-digging and decorating. These tombs were boons of the crown and sometimes the tombs say this--like that of Aper-el in the same area, if I recall correctly a section of the text. The tomb of Maia was quite a large one and filled with reliefs, not mere painting, and reliefs are far more time-consuming. Obviously this tomb was made in the reign of Tutankhamun and is a bigger deal than the one the king ended up in, himself! But, I ask once again, if Meritaten was so beloved of the king why was she not given a burial that reflected her royal status? It doesn't make sense. Even a regent for an immature king does not have to be depicted looking like a nurse! Now this Maia is said to have fed the king. To do that, you need to have a child of your own. High born ladies, much less queens, did not nurse their own children---much less their little brothers! |
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Lutz
Pharaoh
Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3824
Location: Berlin, Germany
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| Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| SidneyF wrote: | | Robson wrote: | | Lutz once pointed out here about Maïa's modius which makes her quite special, and is an important part in Zivie's hypothesis. |
... Suddenly, I have seen there was an entire thread about this theory of Zivie here [because it was revived by Lutz] going back to 2010. ... |
See "Book about Maia(Zivie) - connection to Meritaten". For this modius based theory especially:
| Lutz, Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:40 pm wrote: | | Wearing a modius is typical for women connected with the royal harim. Pictures from the tomb of Cheruef at Thebes (18. Dynasty, Amenhotep III. & IV.) and the rooms in the so called "High Gate" at Medineth Habu (20. Dynasty, Ramses III.) come to my mind |
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| Meretseger, Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:19 pm wrote: | | anneke wrote: |
| Meretseger wrote: | | There is not the slightest reason to identify her with Meritaten who was a King's Daughter, a King's Great Wife, and not impossibly a King. |
Alain Zivie seems to disagree with you ... |
Yes he does, and God knows I don't have credentials to match his. On the other hand Amarna does seem to inspire even the soberest of scholars to flights of fancy. A King's daughter, King's Great Wife giving up those high titles AND her name to assume a commoner's identity doesn't strike me as very logical.
Surely it is much more likely that Maia was an important lady of court given the high rank of wet nurse to the King's Son Tutankhaten and not unnaturally honored by her royal fosterling in later life. |
Greetings, Lutz.
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kylejustin
Vizier
Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1231
Location: victoria, australia
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| Lutz wrote: | | Wearing a modius is typical for women connected with the royal harim. Pictures from the tomb of Cheruef at Thebes (18. Dynasty, Amenhotep III. & IV.) and the rooms in the so called "High Gate" at Medineth Habu (20. Dynasty, Ramses III.) come to my mind |
that would be quite interesting if she were a member of the harem. or maybe she wasn't a member, but she nursed their children?
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Lutz
Pharaoh
Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3824
Location: Berlin, Germany
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| kylejustin wrote: | | Lutz wrote: | | Wearing a modius is typical for women connected with the royal harim. Pictures from the tomb of Cheruef at Thebes (18. Dynasty, Amenhotep III. & IV.) and the rooms in the so called "High Gate" at Medineth Habu (20. Dynasty, Ramses III.) come to my mind |
that would be quite interesting if she were a member of the harem. or maybe she wasn't a member, but she nursed their children? |
I also suspect something of that kind. Or she got the right to wear this object as a sign of her high rank directly from her "little" king? In any case, I agree with Meretseger: with Meritaton Zivie shoots here far beyond the target.
Unfortunately I can not read French, but I made a scan of the book (Alain Zivie : La Tombe de Maia - Mere Nourriciere du Roi Toutankhamon et Grande du Harem (Bub I.20). - Touluse : Caracara, 2009) for private personal use. So, If required, I can help out with text excerpts or images.
Greetings, Lutz.
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anneke
Queen of Egypt
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305
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| Posted: Sun May 25, 2014 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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I tried in 2010 to figure out what it was that convinced Zivie enough to actually propose this theory. I still have not figured it out 
Maia as a member of the harem, or as someone who held a high court position as one of the governesses makes more sense to me than her as Meritaten herself.
I had wondered if this lady Maia was a wet nurse, then she had to have a child of her own of the same age as Tut. The mother of the Vizier Usermontu was named Maia. Coincidence? Very possibly, but I always found that an interesting tidbit.
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