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a passage in Maspero?

 
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Eio
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:14 pm    Post subject: a passage in Maspero? Reply with quote

Dear friends,

I've been reading some old books about Egyptology, including the 'History of Egypt' by Maspero,

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/28876/28876-h/files/17322/17322-h/v2b.htm

There Maspero mentions Pharaoh Teti, the founder of the VIth dynasty. Further, Maspero talks about a certain monument of the early part of the XIXth dynasty, a ″pyramid that was opened up in 1881″, where Teti was mentioned.

Here's the passage from Maspero's book,

"He [Teti] is called Teti Menephtah, with the cartouche prænomen of Seti I., on a monument of the early part of the XIXth dynasty, in the Museum at Marseilles: we see him in his pyramid represented as standing. This pyramid was opened in 1881, and its chambers are covered with long funerary inscriptions. It is a work of the time of Seti I., and not a contemporary production of the time of Menkaûhorû."

So my question is, What was that pyramid that was opened in 1881? Does anybody know? I must admit that I'm somewhat confused by this whole passage, so perhaps someone could clarify it for me.

I did some searches on the Net, but am still not much wiser about the whole thing. Sad

Was it a pyramid of Seti I, or II? Or of someone associated with them?

Best wishes,

Eio
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:32 pm    Post subject: Re: a passage in Maspero? Reply with quote

Eio wrote:
... reading some old books about Egyptology ... 'History of Egypt' by Maspero ... There Maspero mentions Pharaoh Teti, the founder of the VIth dynasty. Further, Maspero talks about a certain monument of the early part of the XIXth dynasty, a ″pyramid that was opened up in 1881″, where Teti was mentioned.

Here's the passage from Maspero's book,

"He [Teti] is called Teti Menephtah, with the cartouche prænomen of Seti I., on a monument of the early part of the XIXth dynasty, in the Museum at Marseilles: we see him in his pyramid represented as standing. This pyramid was opened in 1881, and its chambers are covered with long funerary inscriptions. It is a work of the time of Seti I., and not a contemporary production of the time of Menkaûhorû."

So my question is, What was that pyramid that was opened in 1881? ...

It is the only known pyramid for him, the one in Saqqara, opened and 1st published (pyramidtexts) by Gaston Maspero in 1881.

Cairo, Egyptian Museum, CG 34188 is a stela (1,25 x 0,75 m, limestone, painted) of Mer(y)ptah and his son Dhutmosi from the 19th Dynasty, with the cartouches of Teti (Barsanti, ASAE 13, 1914, pp. 255 - 256), found in the Mortuary Temple of Teti I pyramid complex. The king was obviously, at least locally, still worshiped in the New Kingdom.

Eio wrote:
... Was it a pyramid of Seti I, or II? Or of someone associated with them? ...

Clearly no. There is only a name similarity between the Meryptah (Beloved of Ptah) mentioned on the stela, and some name forms / additives of some kings of the 19th Dynasty. We must not forget at this point, that Egyptology as science just arised... Of which object in Marseilles Maspero is talking about, I can not say.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have found the object in Marseille (part of a naos from Saqqara). On it there is indeed two times a cartouche "Teti Mery-en-Ptah":


(Naville : Le roi Teta Merenphtah. - In: ZÄS 16. - 1878. - pp. 69 - 72, pl. IV)

However, this writing of the name for king Teti I. from the 6th Dynasty is, as far as I know, not assigned prior the 19th Dynasty. Maspero presumed as a possible reason the importance of the god Ptah in Memphis / Saqqara or a special reminiscence of the donor of the stela to "his" kings from the 19th Dynasty, some of which, as I said, also led these additional in there name (Gaston Maspero : Catalogue du Musée égyptien de Marseille. - 1889. - pp. 10 - 11).

Greetings, Lutz.
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Robson
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The guy depicted, the Scribe of the Offering Table of the Lord of the Two Lands Amenwahsu is also depicted somewhere else, isn't he?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For Jmn-w3h-sw (Owner of TT 111, Shaykh Abd al Qurnah, Reign of Ramesses II.) see ...

Amer, A.M.A. : The Scholar-Scribe Amenwahsu and his Family. - In: ZÄS 127. - 2000. - pp. 1-5.

Collins, Lydia : The Private Tombs of Thebes - Excavations by Sir Robert Mond, 1905-1906. - In: JEA 62. - 1976. - pp. 18-40, esp. p. 33.

Porter, Bertha and Rosalind Moss : Topographical Bibliography of Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphic Text, Reliefs, and Paintings - I, 1.: The Theban Necropolis - Private Tombs. - Oxford : Clarendon Press, 1960. - p. 229.

Habachi, Labib : Amenwahsu Attached to the Cult of Anubis, Lord of the Dawning Land. - In: MDAIK 14. - 1956. - pp. 52 - 62, 2 Abb., 2 Taf.

Barthelmeß, Petra : Der Dialog des Amenwachsu mit den Wächtern des Osiris. - In: FS Gundlach zum 65. Geburtstag - ÄAT 35. - Wiesbaden : Harrassowitz, 1996. - pp. 18 - 22.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
... Amer, A.M.A. : The Scholar-Scribe Amenwahsu and his Family. - In: ZÄS 127. - 2000. - pp. 1-5. ...

One of his titles was "Scribe who copies out the annals of the gods and goddesses in the House of Life". This title suspect / expect a certain expertise when it comes to the names of earlier kings...

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Lutz,
The mystery solved!

So this was the pyramid of Teti that Maspero opened up. And there was a chapel there, as part of the pyramid complex, that was probably remodelled or added during D19. And in this chapel, there were a couple of stelae dedicated for a D19 character Mer(y)ptah -- probably by his son Dhutmosi. They were portrayed adoring Teti as 'Teti Menephtah'.

Did I get this right?

According to Barsanti, the stelae show that Teti was adored as divinity even in D19. His funeral chapel served as a temple where people came to adore him as god.

Here are the scans of the 2 relevant pages from Barsanti with French text, plus some additional hieroglyphic texts, not translated,

https://ia600408.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/18/items/annalesduservice13egypuoft/annalesduservice13egypuoft_jp2.zip&file=annalesduservice13egypuoft_jp2/annalesduservice13egypuoft_0293.jp2&scale=4&rotate=0

https://ia600408.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/18/items/annalesduservice13egypuoft/annalesduservice13egypuoft_jp2.zip&file=annalesduservice13egypuoft_jp2/annalesduservice13egypuoft_0294.jp2&scale=4&rotate=0

It's pretty amazing that the worship of Teti went on for so long.

BTW is the name 'Mer(y)ptah' the same as 'Menephtah'? How are these two names related?

Cheers,

Eio
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robson wrote:
The guy depicted, the Scribe of the Offering Table of the Lord of the Two Lands Amenwahsu ...


Where's he depicted? Is he the kneeling man on the stela?

Eio
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eio wrote:
Robson wrote:
The guy depicted, the Scribe of the Offering Table of the Lord of the Two Lands Amenwahsu ...


Where's he depicted? Is he the kneeling man on the stela?

Eio


Yes
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eio wrote:

It's pretty amazing that the worship of Teti went on for so long.


I wonder if Teti was actually worshipped as the guardian deity of the necropolis of Saqqara due the location of his complex (just by the necropolis road of access, and very close to the New Kingdom tombs).
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TT111 Amenwahsu apparently was a man connected to the Theban cult of Amun. I wonder if his influence went to far, or Saqqara's Amenwahsu was a different person. There is an stela depicting another Amenwahsu alongside with the pharaoh's son-in-law Tia. Hibachi (1969) believes that this Amenwahsu was Tia's father, what makes him a different person from TT111 Amenwahsu. Tia is not mentioned in the tomb (unlike Amenwahsu's other sons Ipu, Dedia and Khaemopet). Thus, is possible that the Amenwahsu fron Teti's stela is not the scholar scribe Amenwahsu, but rather someone else buried in Saqqara's New Kingdom sector.

Saqqara, Relief of Amenwahsu and Tia (Chicago OI 10507) L. Habachi, RdE2 (1969). 27-47
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Appears to me personally, also with view of the unclear origin of the relief, as too speculative. It is not even clear if this relief (Chicago OI 10507) is part of a stela and if it comes from a tomb or a temple. Also the place where it is from is not really secure (Saqqara?, Abydos?).

See P&M VIII : NEW KINGDOM, Dynasties XVIII-XX, Royal Stelae (including boundary stelae) or those with representations of kings without non-royal persons (Online) as "Lower Part of a Stela" :

"Habachi, L. in Rev. d’ Ég. 21 (1969), 45-6 [8] pl. 3 (as temple relief); Martin, Corpus i, No. 74 pl. 27; id. The Tomb of Tia and Tia (1997), 47-8 [333] pl. 98 and van Dijk, J. in ib. 49-50 (as possibly from Abydos) = van Dijk, J. The New Kingdom Necropolis of Memphis. Historical and Iconographical Studies (1993), 85-8 (as possibly from Abydos) fig. 14 (from Martin); Pridmore, J. in AramcoWorld 4 [6] (Nov.-Dec. 1993), fig. on 18 [lower]; Berlandini Keller, J. in Les Dossiers d’Archéologie 241 (March 1999), 64 fig. on 65 [upper]; Teeter, E. in Near Eastern Archaeology 62 (1999) fig. on 98 [lower]; id. in Egyptian Archaeology 16 (2000), fig. on 42 [lower]; id. Ancient Egypt. Treasures from the Collection of the Oriental Institute, University of Chicago (2003), 56-7 [25], 128 [25], 134 [25] figs. on 8-9, 56 (as probably from Abydos). Sethos I and son, id. in KMT 10 [4] (1999), fig. on 51 [upper right]. Text, kitchen, Ram. Inscr. i, 320 [126] (as relief)."

Also I think that if this Amenwahsu was Tia's father it should be mentioned in the text?

Greetings, Lutz.
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