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Philae in Hieroglyphic writing.

 
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:27 am    Post subject: Philae in Hieroglyphic writing. Reply with quote

I have searched enough to know Philae is derived from Coptic "Pilak", which in turn comes from ancient egyptian "P-iw-rk", meaning "The island of angle/end". P==> Article, iw==> Island, rk ==> end, angle.
Now, when it comes to find the hieroglyphic representation, it's a dead end. I thought at first it was because there weren't in the first, only to be found in demotic/coptic, but in fact, I've stumbled on books that say "coming from hieroglyphic [...]", which means there must be the hieroglyphic representation somewhere...but which one?
For now, I've heard the hieroglyphic representation has a double foreign-hill determinatives...but it was namely one source that said that.

A dead end. Unless one has the right resources at hand around here. My personal ancient egyptian dictionaries aren't generous in toponyms.
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Kmt is not a racial term nor a reference to the black silt deposited on the Nile valley, but an expression of "standing on place wherein food is plenty, allowing to stop moving like the neighbouring nomads". -Asar Imhotep
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy

Here the ridicule kills the gravity of a circumstance. As usual, luck happens not much later than when I ask for help... Confused
Found the hieroglyphic transcription through a hint that Champollion read the hieroglyphic Philae as Manlak. A hint lost in the hundred pages, but bam it gave the solution.
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok.

Looks like there is another hieroglyphic form. Oh well...
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing I should have thought of it thouroughly. I just had to go to the german part of Wikipedia and there I got the sole mention in hieroglyphs Philae on the whole web.

And it says it was taken from H.Gautier's book "Dictionnaire des noms géographiques contenus dans les textes hiéroglyphiques", making this rather legit.

Not surprising since Germans are on the front in egyptology.

PHILAE
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Aset
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philae

Sources:
a) TLA, Arrow DZA 20.430.090

b) Lepsius Tafelwerke Arrow Abth. IV. Bl. 27, b (line 3)



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

c) Arrow OREA, Arrow (photo)



d) Arrow archaeohistorytours.com



e) TLA, Arrow DZA 24.906.160, Arrow DZA 24.906.170



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Aset. I see there are many ways to name a place for the Ancient Egyptians. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:44 pm    Post subject: Retrospective Reply with quote

Retrospectively, now I can answer myself on that question one year ago.

There is not a unique orthographic spelling for topographies (or any word). Usually, there are one or two common ones, but, depending of the upbringing and time frame of the scribe, the orthography may vary.
Transliteration or better said vocal spelling is the true thing back in Ancient Era.

It is good to see how I progressed since the humble beginnings where I had no resources to find info. Very Happy
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Rudra
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aset wrote:
Philae

Sources:
a) TLA, Arrow DZA 20.430.090

b) Lepsius Tafelwerke Arrow Abth. IV. Bl. 27, b (line 3)



Aset


I am learning hieroglyphics so, let me decipher the name in the cartouche (2)

(n)sw-t bity ntjr ra ntjr pth khpr wst (?) stp n ra

Not sure if it is correct but members here are welcome to correct me.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



You must consider the honorific transposition of the devine names!
See Arrow Collier/Manley, p. 33 read2

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ptolemy VIII "Physcon" Euergetes II nesu-bity name.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Idea

nsw-bj.tj jwa.w-n-nTr.wj-pr.wj stp-n-PtH-xpr.j jr-mAa.t-Jmn-Ra

I would say it is the throne name of Ptolemy VI Philometor

Aset
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, you have to pay attention to write a absolutely correct transcription.
Without that, you can't use dictionaries.
not (n)sw-t, but nsw.t or nsw
not ntjr, but nTr
not pth, but ptH
not khpr, but xpr.j

Honorific transpositions in this cartouche:
The divine names Ptah-Kepri and Amun-Re precede connected words.
But the transcription must be made in logical grammatical order.

Note, in ptolemaic period N8A (and N8 ) had also the phonetic value pri - emerge (also xa and more).

Aset
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Rudra
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aset wrote:
First, you have to pay attention to write a absolutely correct transcription.
Without that, you can't use dictionaries.
not (n)sw-t, but nsw.t or nsw
not ntjr, but nTr
not pth, but ptH
not khpr, but xpr.j

Honorific transpositions in this cartouche:
The divine names Ptah-Kepri and Amun-Re precede connected words.
But the transcription must be made in logical grammatical order.

Note, in ptolemaic period N8A (and N8 ) had also the phonetic value pri - emerge (also xa and more).

Aset
Hello Aset,

Thank you very much for your detailed explanation. Sometimes cartouches really throw me away as to when to read what. Smile I guess a little more consulting the books will help. By the way, how did you reproduce the cartouche in your post above?
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