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Where DidtThe Word "EGYPT" come from ??
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Psusennes
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's only modern fools who pronounce it as a single-syllable word (no offense meant Smile ). It should still have three- "Tehooti".
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isisinacrisis
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oi, I happen to be one of those 'modern fools' Laughing
Do you guys prefer to use the Egyptian names or the more familiar Greek/English names? I still stick to the familiar ones-less confusing, I think. The Egyptian names haven't 'grown' on me yet...

Apparently, not sure if this is true or not, but the reason the greeks 'mispronounced' the Egyptian words is because the Egyptians spoke their language really fast! and apparently the way they slowly intone 'Ancient Egyptian' in the movies is wrong because they really spoke it fast, and sometimes the syllables blurred together, and it would have caused major confusion to foreigners! Is this true?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How would we know if they spoke really rapidly or not?
It may just be that they had sounds that were particular to their language.

Like the "th" sound in English. Most Dutch people have a devil of a time pronouncing that. Similarly there is a very hars "g" sound in the Dutch language that foreigners have a hard time pronouncing.

It's not that strange I think. Have you ever heard natives pronounce the names of local cities, celebreties? It's often not how foreigners would pronounce them.
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isisinacrisis
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is true, even when Americans try to pronounce the names of certain places in London it's different to English English, like 'Leicester Square' and so on...and there are a lot of sounds in French that a lot of English people struggle with (I can though-I'm half french) and other languages have different sounds too which are rather difficult for foreigners to pronounce or to produce.
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Dampwater
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow, its kinda funnyhow different pronounciations have made all these names completely different, but why would Egypt be called that by only a place in Memphis, shouldn't it have at least been called something like Kemetos or Kemeta or even like Kimta, something close to Kemet; the name that Egyptians called Egypt rather than just the name of one God or a city ?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good question.

The Netherlands is sometimes called Holland. Holland refers to only 2 of the provinces that make up all of the Netherlands.

Similarly the former Soviet Union was sometimes referred to as Russia, even though Russia was just one of many states.

Maybe something like this is going on here as well?
(I don't know, but that's my best guess.)
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is a good question proposed by Dampwater. I think it has to do with what I mentioned before. Though Egypt was a very large nation and the Greeks built temples all over the place, Greek influence, government, and commerce was concentrated primarily in the north. Those were the environs with which the Greeks were most familiar and how they referred to ancient Egypt in their own histories. It is odd, though, that it should come from a temple that was more important to the Egyptians than the Greeks themselves. In that light, I wonder why we of today don't refer to Egypt as "Memphis" or something similar?

Isisinacrisis, as far as using Greek or Egyptian names for gods and such, it really doesn't matter. I myself prefer the original Egyptian names out of respect to the ancients, but when I'm talking about the gods with visitors at our museum I typically use the Greek names because those are what everyday people are more familiar with.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But didn't the High Priest of Ptah from Memphis become extremely powerful during the ptolemaic period? That might explain why that area somehow "represented" egypt for them?
(If you see a lot of straw around, it's from me grasping at it.... Very Happy )
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You must be grasping at the right straws because you're absoluetly right. Anemhor and his descendants held onto the High Priest title for a great length of time and were very influential throughout much of the reigns of the Ptolemies. That influence may indeed have had something to do with it.
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Dampwater
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, i know this thread is well past dead, but this post is pretty important.
I think the word Egypt never came from Memphis or its Egyptian name Hetkuptah. Its most likely to have come from simply the Copts, like Hecoptus--> Aigyptos-->Egypt. And, what was the origin and meaning of the word Copt ? Also does anybody know of the origin and meaning of the word Mizraim, that later developed into Egypt's Arabic name "Misr" ??
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dampwater, the word "Copt" comes from the Arabic "qubt," which the Copts themselves pronounced "gyptios," which of course comes from "Aigyptios." We've pretty much gone full-circle now!

The Coptic language is no longer spoken except in the Coptic churches of Egypt and Ethiopia. It is a direct descendent of the ancient Egyptian tongue but is written primarily with Greek (and six Demotic signs). We use it now to refer to a specific people and period of Egypt, though it didn't start out that way.

Psusennes, who has studied Greek, explained the odd "Hwt-ka-ptah=Egypt" transformation pretty well in an earlier post. I too expressed puzzlement at how certain Egyptian words took on their later Greek corruptions. It has to do with Greek suffixes and the marked differences between the two languages. In any case, linguists and historians firmly state that "Egypt" does indeed come from "Hwt-ka-ptah."
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kinhshea
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isisinacrisis wrote:
Quote:
I don't want to go into the 'dark' mechanics of this word though (otherwise this forum will end up like EgyptSearch ... God help those people).


Are you talking about the claims that they refer to skin colours? I was puzzled at why Kemet meant black land when Egypt seems more, erm, sandy coloured...but that egyptsearch board scares me...everyone there is so race obsessed!


Or maybe they are extremely upset about the fact that white archaeologists, historians, and laymen refer to Egypt as being "white" when there is vast evidence to the contrary. Rolling Eyes When they do the opposite, they are "race obsessed"...
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Or maybe they are extremely upset about the fact that white archaeologists, historians, and laymen refer to Egypt as being "white" when there is vast evidence to the contrary. When they do the opposite, they are "race obsessed"...


I have spoken with numerous well-respected archaeologists and historians, including Egyptologists, and never once have I heard them refer to Egypt as being "white." Laymen? Quite possible, I should imagine. By definition they lack the deepr historical understanding to differentiate. But trained professionals? I should hope not.

As we have discussed ad infinitum on the Egyptian Dreams forum, Egypt was not white, excepting elements of Aegean peoples who lived there but were not native to the Two Lands; nor was Egypt an entirely black civilization. All evidence (including the preserved bodies themselves) points to a largely Semitic population with concentrations of blacks the farther south you go. And black peoples occupied all levels of Egyptian society.

To try to say that Egypt was all white or all black is nothing more than an uninformed and unhistorical attempt to twist history to one's agenda--it is historical revisionism. And it's utterly simplistic. All evidence points to the fact that ancient Egypt was a wonderfully cosmopolitan society.

Quote of isisinacrises provided by kinhshea:

Quote:
but that egyptsearch board scares me...everyone there is so race obsessed!


From all I've heard about this egyptsearch forum, it is one discussion forum on ancient Egypt I have never visited. Another poster on Egyptian Dreams wrote that egyptsearch used to be scholarly and open-minded, and only later degenerated into rancorously unpleasant race obsession. That is sad. It is the purpose of these forums to share knowledge and ideas, not to attempt to promote unhistorical and acrimonious issues.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you kmt_sesh. If you look at some historians from the early to mid 20th century, then you see clear evidence of racist theories. People like Lepsius, Reisner, Maspero and even Weigall were not the most open minded. And there were people then who assumed that to be so great they had to be white. (stupid) Part of that came through the Nazi doctrines that had made their way into archeology.

Today however, I would think that this would be viewed as a horribly backwards way of thinking. (I think you would have to go to a white supremacist source to find the argument.)
If you look at the people who are now active in Egypt and the Sudan, you find native egyptian and sudanese (and thus of course african) archeologists. I think that makes a difference as well. My impression is that they now assume that the ancient egyptians looked a lot like the modern egyptians. I.e. mixed, but clearly not white.

I find it actually rather interesting that in several of the more recent documentaries this is evident in the re-enactments. They do not use european actors (or american) to portray the ancient egyptians Wink

Slightly different: There was a particular documentary about excavations in the Sudan I watched a while ago. They showed people who grew up near Gebel Barkal. It was amazing to see the faces. I felt like they could have been statues come alive from the pharaonic era.
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isisinacrisis
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I second that. It is shocking to see that a lot of pyramidiots also stick to white supremist ideals of ancient Egyptians being Caucasians/Nordics/Aryans even though many present day Egyptologists have long disagreed the notion of a 'pharaonic master race'. I agree that they were mixed, and yes, I do agree that they were a mix of African and Semitic-but not totally African or totally Semitic, but a mixture, with varying brown skin tones, probably like modern Egyptians.

Quote:
I find it actually rather interesting that in several of the more recent documentaries this is evident in the re-enactments. They do not use european actors (or american) to portray the ancient egyptians


I have noticed that too. I also read somewhere that apparently the actors in reconstructions in some recent docu's are native Egyptians. Smile Can't remember where I saw that, but it makes sense...
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