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Where DidtThe Word "EGYPT" come from ??
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Dampwater
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:39 pm    Post subject: Where DidtThe Word "EGYPT" come from ?? Reply with quote

I just wanted to know where the word Egypt came from?? , i mean what is the derivative of Egypt or what made westerners call it that way. Egyptians call Egypt "Masr" or "Misr", and i think the ancient Egyptians called it kmt, im not sure about that, but i am sure that it was translanted to the land of dark soil.
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isisinacrisis
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've heard that it's a Greek word, but that it's actually a translation of an egyptian word, or something...
Never knew about Masr though. That's new to me. I've heard of Kemet, someone even mentioned it being called Tamara or something, but I'm not sure about that.
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Psusennes
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It came originally from 'Ha(t)-ka-ptah' (the dwelling of Ptah), which was one of the main districts of Memphis. This name was passed through the Persian corruption- 'Hikupta', and then to the Ancient Greek 'Aigyptos'. One of the first appearances of the Greek word is in Herodotus' Histories, which I am studying in Ancient Greek at school. Then it came through the mediaeval french word 'Egypte' to modern English.

And the Ancient Egyptians called Egypt 'Kemet'. That is derived from 'kem', which means black. and then a '-t' is added so that it agrees with the symbol at the end of the word, which means kingdom, city or province. So it means 'black land', which is an allusion to the fertile black soil of Egypt. They called the desert 'deshret', the red land, for a similar reason- because it was a reddish colour. I don't want to go into the 'dark' mechanics of this word though (otherwise this forum will end up like EgyptSearch ... God help those people).

Hope that helps- Dampwater Smile
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Dampwater
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hikupta to aigyptos is pretty wide man, r u sure this is where egypt is derived from Question
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't want to go into the 'dark' mechanics of this word though (otherwise this forum will end up like EgyptSearch ... God help those people).


Are you talking about the claims that they refer to skin colours? I was puzzled at why Kemet meant black land when Egypt seems more, erm, sandy coloured...but that egyptsearch board scares me...everyone there is so race obsessed!

Apparently, Deshret is where the English word 'desert' comes from. I heard that on a nice little documentary on Egypt done by one of the Monty Python guys. Smile
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Dampwater
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^^
ok, look, obviously Kemet doesnt mean that ancient Egyptians were black, in the pictures they were brown, or light brown, like me, i'm Egyptian, i'm light brown. Kemet doesnt refer to the black people of Egypt, it refers to the black of the fertile, nutrition filled soil that was the basis for Egyptian prosperity. So, EGYPT IS NOT BLACK, its African, but its not black, maybe people from Kush were black, but they weren't Egyptians.

I was simply questioning where are the origins of Egypt, the word, cuz here we call our country Misr, so i just thought that it would be only appropriate for foreigners to call us Misr, or a foreignized version of it, like it is to other countries. Unless there are ancient origins to the word Egypt, in which case i want to know what it means.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Psusennes wrote:
I don't want to go into the 'dark' mechanics of this word though (otherwise this forum will end up like EgyptSearch ... God help those people).)
I wouldn't allow that to happen - I have enough 'race' topics on my Alexander message board to deal with without them happening here Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dampwater wrote:
hikupta to aigyptos is pretty wide man, r u sure this is where egypt is derived from Question


I think the jump from hikupta to aikupta would be very easy. Just say it quickly and the 'h' goes silent pretty quickly.

That's what I've always heard was the root for the name Egypt.
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dampwater wrote:
hikupta to aigyptos is pretty wide man, r u sure this is where egypt is derived from Question


Psusennes is correct. The Greeks could not wrap their tongues around most of the languages spoken by ancient desert and Semetic peoples. Many of the words, names, and place names we have for Egypt today in fact come from Greek corruptions of the original Egyptian and/or Persian names. The way I've encountered it myself is, Aigyptos is a corrution of the original Hwt-ka-ptah, "Mansion of the Soul of Ptah," the district where the Memphite temple of Ptah was located (hwt, "mansion" or "temple," ka, rather untranslatable so we just say "soul," and of course the god Pth). Whatever. Psusennes and I arrived at pretty much the same place.

Though the Ptolemaic pharaohs erected temples all over Egypt, the everyday Greeks living in Egypt were clustered in the Delta and northern Nile Valley, and Memphis was the most powerful of the Egyptian ancient cities there; the Greeks gave Egypt its name based on one of its most prominent northern locations.

It's fun to go back and learn what the Egyptians called their cities and gods and such. I consider it respectful to them to use their words when I speak with people at the museum. But to be fair, the Egyptians could not pronounce many Greek words and names. That's why when they called out the name of Ptolemaios it sounded more like "Ptlumis!"

If you think Hikupta to Aigyptos is a stretch, I myself have always wondered how in the hell the Greeks turned Djehuty into Thoth!
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot to ask. You folks were discussing EgyptSearch. I'm not familiar with it. What's EgyptSearch all about?
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isisinacrisis
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the greeks got Thoth from Tehuti...didn't the greeks give their own names to Isis, Osiris and the rest too?

Egyptsearch is another forum, but there the members tend to post a bit too many topics about ancient egyptian 'race' and most of the posts turn into long winded arguments saying that they are 'black'. Now the race of the Egyptians is still debatable (I myself believe they were pretty mixed, but basically various shades of brown-that's what i think. It's possible there were some 'blacks' from the nubians and such.) but these people at that forum take these things too seriously and it's got really out of hand. I would never join that forum-the people there scare me.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even if the Greeks heard "Tehuti" when the Egyptians said "Djehuty," it still seems odd that it turned into Thoth. It's not even close. For that matter it's not even the right number of syllables, unless the Egyptians were given to calling the god "Djet" or "Djut." Sorry, that's my mind wandering...

You're right about many of the other gods. "Isis" comes from "Aset" or "Uset" and "Osiris" from "Asir" or "Usir." My own favorite Egyptian god is Anubis, which the Egyptians spoke as "Inpu" or "Inepu." "Horus" was originally "Hor" and "Hathor" was "Hwt-Hor" (literally "the Mansion of Horus" or "the Palace of Horus"). Those are just some examples. I think a lot of the changes in vocabularly had to do with Greek suffixes, but I must admit I don't speak a word of Greek, except for "gyros," which I like to have for lunch (Greek really is Greek to me!).

I guess that EgyptSearch forum sounds like too much of a downer for me. Everyone there sounds like they're trying to make things too political. Not my kind of place. We know for a fact that the Egyptians were a mixture of people, many Semitics and many blacks. It's sad and immature when someone tries to turn one of the most magnificant ancient civilizations into a tool to service their own race-related agenda. I don't think I'll be visiting EgyptSearch. Egyptian Dreams is much better.
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Psusennes
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kmt_sesh wrote:
Even if the Greeks heard "Tehuti" when the Egyptians said "Djehuty," it still seems odd that it turned into Thoth. It's not even close


It's actually incredibly close- If you try to say "Djehuty" like an Ancient Egyptian. "Dje" (t) "hu"(ho) "ty"(th). "Te-hu-te" becomes "Th-e-th" which becomes "Thoth". Most modern scholars pronounce "Thoth"to rhyme with 'both', and use the the 'th' sound (as in "those", "this" etc.). To the Ancient Greeks, theta was an aspirated 't', not a 'th' sound. The Greek omicron was more like a short 'oo' sound than a modern 'o' (the Egyptians used a 'ua' glyph to represent it).

Thus, Thoth should be pronounced as "Te-uty", which is very similar to "Djehuty". For simplicity I pronounce it to rhyme with 'both' though, otherwise things get confusing. The twisting happened in modern times- when the name was transliterated into English.
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Psusennes
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh- I learn Greek at school by the way. It's great!
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it certainly helps to have someone with an understanding of Greek. I'm not sure I'm completely convinced yet, or perhaps I missed something. After all, it's a three-syllable word reduced to a single-syllable sound.

But then again, the Egyptians did the same thing when trying to pronounce Greek names and words, so in that light it makes sense.

Never mind. Thanks for pointing that out, Psusennes.
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