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King Apophis/Apepi

 
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Iker
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:06 pm    Post subject: King Apophis/Apepi Reply with quote

Can anyone explain why the Hyksos era King had this name? Is it related to the being whom the sun God battles daily? At what point in history does the great foe of the sun god appear in surviving Egyptian records and does Apophis have the same attributes as in later mythology?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've wondered about that myself. Apparently king Apepi whatever his ancestry, was educated in the Egyptian scribal tradition and would have understood the mythology behind his name. Not exactly a way to win friends and influence people.

Was it:

a. A deliberate slap in the face to his Ra worshipping subjects
b: Just the guy's name given to him at birth--no offense intended--none taken.
c: We don't have the full context. The name Apepi in Avaris at that time just didn't mean what we think it meant. The Hyksos worshipped Set too, maybe they thought that sun-swallowing monster snakes were sort of cool.

The last is a joke but since we have no first hand Hyksos theological texts we idea what the Hyksos thought and believed. Pretty much all the written evidence comes from their 17th and 18th dynasty rivals who absolutely hated them.

Finally, and I know that this may sound silly, but do we have any contemporary evidence in the form of scarabs or seals or inscriptions that does not come from his enemies that this was even the man's real name? Could Apepi have been a nasty nickname given him by his enemies in Thebes, let's say for example, Kamose?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:07 pm    Post subject: Re: King Apophis/Apepi Reply with quote

Iker wrote:
Can anyone explain why the Hyksos era King had this name? Is it related to the being whom the sun God battles daily? ...

No, spelling (in hieroglyphs) and meaning / translation are different.

Iker wrote:
... At what point in history does the great foe of the sun god appear in surviving Egyptian records ...

The previous earliest written evidence for the enemy of Ra - `3pp - comes from the tomb of Ankhtifi in Moalla, "provincial governor ... under the IXth Herakleopolitain Dynasty (around 2100 B.C.)".

Iker wrote:
... and does Apophis have the same attributes as in later mythology?

Ludwig D. Morenz : Apophis - On the Origin, Name, and Nature of an Ancient Egyptian Anti-God. - In: Journal of Near Eastern Studies - JNES 63. - 2004. - pp. 201 - 205. From pp. 202 - 203:
Quote:
"... The figure of Apophis seems to be originally a concept of popular religion outside the decorum of the restricted sources of the elite-culture that survived from the Old Kingdom, while statements about the netherworld are largely lacking in the Pyramid Texts because the concept of the hereafter that they depict is mainly celestial. The great shifts in the FIP that included changes in religious belief and in the system of decorum might have led to Apophis being accepted by the culture of the elite. ... Apophis is mentioned more frequently in the Middle Kingdom Coffin Texts, mostly as an enemy of either the sungod or the dead. Spell 414 describes him as a snake who attacks the bark of Ra; his snakelike being is also indicated by the determinative (see, for example, CT V, 244a). He is evidently a snake living in the water. His mythological role is strongly marked in the underworld books of the New Kingdom. ..."

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They are quasi-homophonic but different names. The anti-god is called Aapep:


while the king was Ipepi, sometimes Ra(!)-Ipepi:

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Iker
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all your replies. I had a hunch this might be the case but there was also doubt because of what happened with Set in the history of Egypt and also Satan in the bible i.e in OT he is in the court of God (Job 1:8) but then eviction in the NT (Luke 10:18).

The mention of his use of Re makes me question if this indicates any kind of fealty towards the Sun God or is it just being used in an honorific way to affirm kingship? Is their any evidence in modern archaeological reports at all of continuing worship of Re throughout the period of Hyksos rule?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iker wrote:
Is their any evidence in modern archaeological reports at all of continuing worship of Re throughout the period of Hyksos rule?


Of course, Apopi had the name of Ra three times in his titulary (Neb-Khepesh-Re, A-Qenen-Re and A-User-Re) which once made some people believe that existed more than one ruler named Apopi.
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Iker
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robson wrote:
Iker wrote:
Is their any evidence in modern archaeological reports at all of continuing worship of Re throughout the period of Hyksos rule?


Of course, Apopi had the name of Ra three times in his titulary (Neb-Khepesh-Re, A-Qenen-Re and A-User-Re) which once made some people believe that existed more than one ruler named Apopi.


Titles, names and such like can be adopted for reasons other than devotion to a god, e.g "Look I am King and have all the titles which go with Kingship therefore you must obey me even though I am a foreigner". The kind of evidence I was looking for is temple buildings to any god other than Set or records of ongoing support for Egyptian cults other than Set (accepting of course the principle that absence of evidence is not is not the evidence of absence". I also accept that even in Egyptian society there would have been traitors and collaborators who would try to smooth away the divisions. I think the hostility towards Hyksos rule is natural and I don't particularly buy into the friendly Asiatic religiously pluralistic model Set was always the trickster god and that fault in the human psyche still spreads mayhem today in the world.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fact is that we don't know how Egyptians regarded the Hyksos domination during its ruling. We have testimonies only of its ending and posterior remarks. The enigmatic figure of Teti'an and the tone of the Year 400 Stela can point to other bias than the mere vilification.
It's quite possible that Egyptian elite turn to Hyksos strongmen at certain moment to get help for controlling the social order, and complied with the resulting status quo. It wouldn't be the last time that Egyptian would conquer their conquerors.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A very good insight and overview on the topic offers ...

Johanna Aletta Brönn : Foreign Rulers of the Nile - A Reassessment of the Cultural Contribution of the Hyksos. - [South Africa, Matieland, Stellenbosch University, MPhil, 2006]. - 127 p. (PDF, 8 MB).

Greetings, Lutz.
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Iker
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robson wrote:
The fact is that we don't know how Egyptians regarded the Hyksos domination during its ruling. We have testimonies only of its ending and posterior remarks. The enigmatic figure of Teti'an and the tone of the Year 400 Stela can point to other bias than the mere vilification.
It's quite possible that Egyptian elite turn to Hyksos strongmen at certain moment to get help for controlling the social order, and complied with the resulting status quo. It wouldn't be the last time that Egyptian would conquer their conquerors.


Slight change in direction.
Though we are separated in time human nature hasn't changed that much. In my country there are lots of complaints from ordinary people who cannot get jobs because of age or other factors that makes them less desirable to companies who would rather employ young Poles who undercut wages and help destroy workers rights that people fought and died for.

For me the kind neo-liberal fanatics we have in the UK are just like the traitors who collaborated with the Hyksos. They do not care about culture, community or values other than love of money and would betray their own people for personal gain because the only loyalty they have is to the money god no matter what they preach.

All this is mixed up with Set who is for me a personification of the so called "Problem of Evil" with history mixed up with theodicy and nobody in my opinion has an answer to that. Maybe the wrong question is being asked.

Ultimately Set couldn't be reconciled as witnessed in the late execration texts and I think the NT may reflect late Egyptian thought in the fall of Satan from heaven.

Set can be treated, and is by some Egyptologists, as psychological entity and not just story/myth and I can discuss him on that level but, as you will gather, he is more than that to me. For me Set rampages through Iraq today in the form of ISIL (perhaps the use of the acronym ISIS is one of his jokes.) and they do not seem to be open to any kind of dialogue and have become an incarnation of evil.

On the other-hand Set had a place in the cosmogony and prosperity of the New Kingdom so.......

I digress but you as you can see I am no lover of the Hyksos and am Theban in outlook, celebrating their eviction from Egypt!
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread is interesting. I can believe that someone would take this name, but it does raise a question of what he was thinking. It also makes me think that he could have been with people who didn't like him. He probably did not have a good understanding of what was going on in the mythology. I will read up on him some more because it raises a lot of questions. Also the fact that spell 414 talks about the snake monster, is interesting because I did not know they were so meticulous in numbering their spells.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dzama923 wrote:
This thread is interesting. I can believe that someone would take this name, but it does raise a question of what he was thinking. ...

As both, Robson and I here in this thread already clearly expressed, this were two different names, which were neither identical in spelling or in pronunciation. No Egyptian would have come to the idea of equating the name of the king with the figure of the snake from mythology.

This is also very clear with a view to the propaganda of the early 18th Dynasty, especially under Hatshepsut. In an inscription (Speos Artemidios?) she says that the Hyksos "ruled without Ra" (that is, against Maat). But she does not relate there last king to the serpent demon.

And, this Hyksos king did not "take this name". It was his birthname. When he became king this name was written in the 2nd cartouche as the 5th of the so called 5 great names, who made his royal titulatur.

dzama923 wrote:
... Also the fact that spell 414 talks about the snake monster, is interesting because I did not know they were so meticulous in numbering their spells.

The numbering of the individual spells and chapters of PT, CT, and BD is a principle of modern Egyptology. It was not introduced or used by the ancient Egyptians.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What do PT, CT, and BD stand for?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pyramid Texts, Coffin Texts, Book of the Dead.
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