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Difficulty with a toponym name (hieroglyphs)

 
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:07 am    Post subject: Difficulty with a toponym name (hieroglyphs) Reply with quote

Hello,
I have a difficulty regarding corresponding the translitterated name of a toponym with its hieroglyphic version. I have both, avered. I just can't make the bridge.

First, the translitteration:



Then, the Denkmäler version and Urkunden:



The best resolution (a.k.a. still crappy) of the toponym in hieroglyphs on a photo:



It is the "man praising" (A73) symbol that poses me problem.



The Wörterbuch gives something different phonetically?...



Idea

P.S. For the curious one, that place/city is supposed to represent the birth place of Alara, the mythological first king of the XXVth dynasty. The context is the Nastasen Stela of his 8th regnal year (Berlin 2268). The first stela on Lutz's site.
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Kmt is not a racial term nor a reference to the black silt deposited on the Nile valley, but an expression of "standing on place wherein food is plenty, allowing to stop moving like the neighbouring nomads". -Asar Imhotep
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the process, just got another difficulty with another hieroglyph.... Laughing



Wished the Urkunden version, but the online version stopped half-way in the facsimile.

The first one (when reading from right to left as the stela demands, but the excerpt taken doesn't give a hint about it). It resembles to Aa30 of the Gardiner list.

http://www.egyptianhieroglyphs.net/gardiners-sign-list/unclassified/

Not sure.

According to the translitteration, it should correspond to the phonetic "ḏȝ", something like "Dja".
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Kmt is not a racial term nor a reference to the black silt deposited on the Nile valley, but an expression of "standing on place wherein food is plenty, allowing to stop moving like the neighbouring nomads". -Asar Imhotep
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Aset
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 11:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Difficulty with a toponym name (hieroglyphs) Reply with quote

Medjay Archer wrote:
Hello,
I have a difficulty regarding corresponding the translitterated name of a toponym with its hieroglyphic version. I have both, avered. I just can't make the bridge.

Heinrich Schäfer's transcription is t-qA
, underlined (that means: "uncertain").



The glyph A28 is determinative for qAi (tall, high).
This A28 was written in hieratic like the A73!

See Möller



and TLA, document DZA 30.292.010

Another example for qAi with A73 instead of A28 is here (Book of the Dead): DZA 30.291.870.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:31 am    Post subject: Re: Difficulty with a toponym name (hieroglyphs) Reply with quote

Medjay Archer wrote:

P.S. For the curious one, that place/city is supposed to represent the birth place of Alara, the mythological first king of the XXVth dynasty. The context is the Nastasen Stela of his 8th regnal year (Berlin 2268).

Hannig, p. 1129:

Idea

Medjay Archer wrote:
In the process, just got another difficulty with another hieroglyph....



It is U28



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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, I'm thankful to you (and Neseret and Lutz in other instances elsewhere) for the help you constantly provide me. Wink

Now, onto the core of the subject, if I understand well, glyph A28 was the intended by the original nubian(?) carver/scribe/artist, but a confusion occurred due of simultaneous knowledge of hieratic where its form is equivalent to A73. Could it be the same case like the very creation of the egg hieroglyph to express filiation. Originally, Old Kingdom until Middle Kingdom, it was G39 been used to express filiation (direct of inverted). But, the hieratic abbreviation happened to resemble to an egg, hence the later appearance of H8 glyph.

Thus, is A28/A73 confusion of similar cause as G39/H8?


Indeed, it is always fascinating to perceive errors made by the scribes themselves. Razz

Now, I'm also grateful for looking into Schäfer's work for this stela. I knew about this work. I just didn't have the courage to look into the whole work given it's both in german and in a handwriting form. Translating german already takes a huge amount of time (I'm doing it for another document already and only 5 pages out of 20 were done!) given I have to type the whole text again. So, thanks. Very Happy

===

Is that common that U28 being distorted? Schäfer says he's fairly certain, but doesn't explain why.

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Kmt is not a racial term nor a reference to the black silt deposited on the Nile valley, but an expression of "standing on place wherein food is plenty, allowing to stop moving like the neighbouring nomads". -Asar Imhotep
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, looking back, using the hieroglyphic sketches of Schäfer in his book, it isn't that hard to get a lead. Moreover with his notation of the lines. Well Embarassed that was rather pusillanimous/lazy of me. Next time, I'll first look into Schäfer own statements...before asking others doing my job. Very Happy Indeed, to learn, one has to be autonomous. Cool
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Kmt is not a racial term nor a reference to the black silt deposited on the Nile valley, but an expression of "standing on place wherein food is plenty, allowing to stop moving like the neighbouring nomads". -Asar Imhotep
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