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Misconceptions and falsehoods about ancient Egypt
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, sphinx statues precede the 4th Dynasty. They are small, more like statuettes. So the Giza Sphinx was nothing new (aside from its size), and as far as that goes, I'm pretty certain Mesopotamians such as the Sumarians were carving them before the time of dynastic Egypt.

I myself am more ready to dismiss Schoch. In his appearance on the Discovery Channel he enthusiastically forwarded his claim in no uncertain terms, even more so than Fletcher with the Nefertiti fiasco. He has a small following of professionals and a huge following of wishful thinkers among the general population. More geologists have stepped forward to explain how Schoch is incorrect with his theories--the weathering of the Sphinx can be explained by the climate as it has existed for the last 4,500 years.

It's probable that some kind of limestone massif existed on the Plateau prior to Khufu's and Khafre's pyramids, but by his experience alone in the field of engineering and land management, Smith presents a very possible case. Much more likely than Schoch's. As I've said before, my belief is that we needn't search out the fantastic and unlikely when the more mundane and explainable already exist.
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isisinacrisis
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've heard a theory on the tv some time ago suggesting that the sphinx was carved from a piece of rock which happened to have a 'sphinx' shape because of constant wind erosion-the Egyptians thought it looked quite leonine and were inspired to carve a face and body into it.

As for the 'rain erosion' theory-maybe that was already there when the sphinx was just a piece of uncarved rock, as it didn't rain very much during the main Egyptian dynastic periods (the rainy season, as you know, was waaaaaay before that)
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isisinacrisis
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thing. I just discovered something about Schoch's latest 'schoch-ing' (groan... Laughing ) theory. He believes the builders of the Egyptian, Mesoamerican and other pyramids around the world came from one source-a lost civilisation of people living in Indonesia, in a land that was sunk by a huge wave-Disney Land style. Surprised (Bear in mind that this was written before the tsunami...) I also saw a supporting theory suggesting the Egyptians, or their gods, came from this sunken southeast Asian land, and not from Egypt. (Why do people waste their time on these things? What's wrong with the Egyptian civilisation being Egyptian in origin? Is that too 'simplistic' for most to accept? Confused )
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:

I myself am more ready to dismiss Schoch. In his appearance on the Discovery Channel he enthusiastically forwarded his claim in no uncertain terms, even more so than Fletcher with the Nefertiti fiasco. He has a small following of professionals and a huge following of wishful thinkers among the general population. More geologists have stepped forward to explain how Schoch is incorrect with his theories--the weathering of the Sphinx can be explained by the climate as it has existed for the last 4,500 years.

It's probable that some kind of limestone massif existed on the Plateau prior to Khufu's and Khafre's pyramids, but by his experience alone in the field of engineering and land management, Smith presents a very possible case. Much more likely than Schoch's. As I've said before, my belief is that we needn't search out the fantastic and unlikely when the more mundane and explainable already exist.


I did not hear about the alternative theories. That makes me happier.
I fully agree with your last sentence. But if science raises questions, then they should be investigated, and not dismissed because it's "inconvenient".
But it sounds then like alternative theories exist that explain things without "having to bend over backwards" and keep the construction of the Sphinx in pharaonic times.

It still left me with the problem though that for once my scientific background had enough gaps that I just couldn't really figure out what was going on, or develop some intuition for what was happening.
That was the reason really I initially wasn't going to throw out any and all ideas just because they didn't fit my preconceived notions.

What Isis wrote about this indonesian source sounds like something I saw on tv as well Sad
In another thread it was mentioned that the internet can be a dubious source of information (to put it nicely), but I have to say that these "documentaries" (aka pseudo-science shows) are even worse.
These people will pass off the most far-out theories as "fact" Rolling Eyes
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isisinacrisis
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw some programmed about a 'lost city' under the sea near India but nothing about the Egyptians coming from Indonesia on TV...what channel was that? (and where on earth did people get such a crazy idea from? I don't see anything in southeast Asia that is connected to Egypt...)
I've never seen pseudo documentaries that bad...but i remember the 'lost civilisation' programme I saw, that's what got me interested in the astronomical side of ancient Egypt. Don't laugh, but I was fascinated...I was only 13 at the time though.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isisinacrisis wrote:
I saw some programmed about a 'lost city' under the sea near India but nothing about the Egyptians coming from Indonesia on TV...what channel was that? (and where on earth did people get such a crazy idea from? I don't see anything in southeast Asia that is connected to Egypt...)


I misquoted you I think...
Accidentaly swapped countries that start with an 'I'.....
Good thing I didn't go as far afield as Italy or Iceland Laughing
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ghobbit
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the SPhinx has to be kept in context with other archaeological data. If we were to say lets ignore the weathering patterns on the sphinx, what other evidence is there that the Egyptians were building monuments of this scale at that time? (I'm talking 10,000yrs ago).

As I understand it, from a documentary I saw on the National Geographic channel last week (The Egypt Detectives) where the question they were trying to answer was did the the Egyptains originate in Egypt or elsewhere, there is evidence of habitation in the region of 4.5 to 5 thousand B.C. From the artefacts etc they were finding at strata levels very much lower than that of the the first dynasty they concluded that yes Ancient Egyptians did in fact originate in Egypt. The objects found fore-runners of death masks, figurines and pottery etc which clearly have a resemblance to the objects we associate with Ancient Egypt today.

You could see from the evidence they presented and the achaeologists/Egyptoligists etc they interviewed there was a clear progression in terms of form and design.

If the Sphinx was 10,000 years old then there should be corroborating evidence and as far as I know, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but there isnt any.
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If the Sphinx was 10,000 years old then there should be corroborating evidence and as far as I know, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but there isnt any.


This theory goes beyond Schoch's work as a geologist, actually. There is a certain group that maintains the Sphinx and the pyramids on the Plateau were built by a lost civilization some 10,000 years ago. Hogwash. Had there been such a civilization, by now some evidence would have been found about it. Nothing whatsoever has, despite more than 300 years of people actively digging up Egypt, from treasure-hunters to modern archaeologists.

The special you saw, ghobbit, was about the predynastic peoples who populated Egypt. There is abundant evidence of these people and their cultures, and such evidence, as you mentioned, does indeed point straight toward the development of dynastic Egypt. There is nothing at all, again, that points to some lost civilaztion, however.

Isisinacrisis and anneke:

I had heard smatterings of Schoch's alternate origin theories but didn't want to believe they were actually his. I had respected him as a scientist and geologist, the field of study in which he belonged and in which he was expert. Now that you guys brought this up, I feel compelled after all to lump Schoch into the category of Pyramidiot. As we've often discussed on Egyptian Dreams and as ghobbit just brought up, all of the evidence from predynastic Egypt confirms the origin as Egyptian. I'm very disappointed in Schoch. What a cook. I'm sorry if that's harsh, but the man should have remained in the field where he was credible.

By the way, isisinacrisis, that "schoch-ing" remark gave me a good chuckle. I like that one. You're quite clever, aren't you? Very Happy
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a lovely one:
http://www.reformation.org/pharaoh.html

The US is based on Egypt. Our use of paper money means we are not really payed and hence slaves (or some strange argument like that). The pharaoh was Satan's pope? Shocked
I'm not sure I can para-phrase the claims. You kinda have to see it for yourself.
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good Grief! I read that listing that anneke supplied and could not believe what I read!
It boggles the mind to think that there are people who think that way. Most of that presented is just an exaggeration, mis-conception or out-and-out lie!
Pyramid on dollar is topped by eye of Horus? A dollar is worth an ounce of sand? The Egyptian enslaved the Hebrews? The stuff just goes on and on!
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing Quite a whopper, isn't it?
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quite a whopper, isn't it?


I'll say. That one's going in my Pyramidiot folder. The first thing that caught my attention was this:

Quote:
Pharaoh is shown here with his symbols of authority - a crosier and a flail or whip to drive his slaves and make them work for nothing. Pharaoh was considered the Pope of the Ancient World. The crosier or shepherd's crook represents his role as shepherd of mankind!!


He's right about the crook, more or less. You could look at it from the Egyptians' perspective that Pharaoh was regarded as the "shepherd of mankind." Hmm, that sounds familiar, doesn't it? Oh yeah, Jesus Christ was also considered the "shepherd of mankind." So by this mental midget's reasoning, Christ must have been a tyrant! They never told me that in Sunday school. As a Catholic, I feel so used and oppressed! Crying or Very sad

As far as the flail goes...please. Yes, it was a whip of sorts, a whip to whisk away flies. That's it. Both of these tools are symbolic of the agrarian and natural roots of the ancient Egyptians.

As far as the rest of it--his drivel about the evil FDR and the government's urge to steal our gold--it is only so much exaggeration and twisted fact. Where do these nitwits dream up this crap? Or better yet, what exactly are they smoking when they're dreaming it up?

Thanks for another laugh, anneke.
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isisinacrisis
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah yes, the typical Christian fundamentalist conspiracy theory site. Don't you just love 'em? Laughing Those are the ones I told you about, kmt-sesh.

Spouting off about Satan and Hebrew slaves...yawn. I think proper Egyptologists have proved that the Hebrews were never enslaved by the Egyptians. I know it sounds controversial but the idea of Pharaoh enslaving hebrews is a bit 'old hat'-ie outdated.

And there's so much rubbish in that site it's making my head spin. And it's another one of those sites claiming that the Egyptian gods are connected to Satan...even suggesting that Pharaoh was posessed by Satan! wtf? Confused And connecting the royal ureus cobra with the serpent in the garden of Eden?? suggesting that the Pope is the ancestor of the pharaoh and that Mary is the 'serpent goddess Hathor' (i thought Isis was more associated, in a way, with Mary, as I said before-but Hathor was not a serpent goddess as the site insists-she was a cow goddess, of course, she is not linked with serpents) Aaaargh I have a headache coming on! Laughing

However, I do believe that there are some Egyptian inspired bits in the Christian religion-yeah, i know, it's controversial, but I think we all know that Isis and Horus possibly did inspire the icons of Mary and Jesus, and so on...but suggesting that the Egyptian imagery is satanic is crap. Satan didn't exist back then!

I never knew that the flail was to keep flies away. I thought it was the impliment used to beat the grain or the cattle...seems a bit lowly for a pharoah?
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Sitamun
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh my! I just got done reading all the posts and viewing all those sites. It made me feel like I was the only sane person left in this world!!!

Where on earth do people get some of these ideas??

I may have to go look for sites of my own to post here...I know I've come across some over the years. That site with the book of the dead was beyond words!!
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