Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The Mysteries of Nefertiti
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Chrismackint
Account Suspended


Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 809

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just reading over that earlier discussion and see those in favour of the bust being authentic choose to revert to personal attacks instead of basing their replies on scientific arguments which I find incredible when I thought people on this forum based everything on scientific factual evidence.

And again as soon as I mention this documentary I am subject to personal attacks.

The skeptics do make a valid point, that the Nefertiti bust simply has too many one-off anomalies that are only unique to it.

And they also make a valid point that all the other royal stone busts and statues are not covered in plaster. It doesn't take much intelligence to quickly realize that their was a damaged bust of Nefertiti originally found at the site, that explains why the "inner" face of Nefertiti has all that damage.

Quote:
In a recent examination using a remote sensing technique known as video holography, Simon and his colleagues found damaged areas around the statue's headdress and upper chest.


source: http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/berlin-s-nefertiti-debate-calling-the-queen-s-authenticity-into-question-a-625719-2.html

When you throw Borchardt into the mix alarms go off.

Quote:
Ludwig Borchardt had roughly 5,500 objects brought to Berlin.


source: http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/new-findings-about-nefertiti-as-berlin-exhibition-opens-a-870731-2.html

Quote:
Ten stone artifacts were listed in the left column, beginning with a colorful "folding altar." It too was a very unusual work. The stele depicted Akhenaton and Nefertiti with their children. At the time, there was only one comparable specimen worldwide, and it was in Berlin.


source: http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/new-findings-about-nefertiti-as-berlin-exhibition-opens-a-870731-2.html

Quote:
But the list of finds obscured an important point. Although Borchardt knew that the Nefertiti bust had a stone core, he described the material as consisting entirely of "plaster."


source: http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/new-findings-about-nefertiti-as-berlin-exhibition-opens-a-870731-2.html

Quote:
Borchardt must have been plagued by a guilty conscience, though. Otherwise he wouldn't have refused to publicly exhibit the bust. After being shipped to Germany, it was initially placed under lock and key. Only Kaiser Wilhelm II, as the supreme patron of the Oriental Society, received a copy as a Christmas gift.

It wasn't until 1924 that the director of the Egyptian Museum in Berlin, Heinrich Schäfer, held an exhibition -- against Borchardt's will.


source: http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/new-findings-about-nefertiti-as-berlin-exhibition-opens-a-870731-2.html


Perhaps, instead of insulting people you should find another painted royal bust from Amarna that shares the same illogical characteristics of being a carved stone bust covered in plaster. Actually no not from Amarna, how about from AE in general.

Even the Pharoah's gold masks give us more than one example to go by, yet this mysterious bust is the only royal stone bust covered in plaster form the entire three thousand years of AE history.

The complete lack of knowledge pertaining to the Nefertiti bust simply astounds me. I wish I had never watched that program and subsequently stumbled across all this information that clearly shows their is a lot of doubt about it's authenticity.

Anyone with half a brain realizes that Nefertiti has boiled down to an economic argument and national pride argument, meaning that it has now entered a unique place in the public imagination as an icon of feminine beauty and celebrity, where it is impossible to question it's authenticity or express any doubts about the German government.

Quote:
If it were returned to Cairo, Germany would lose a world-class treasure of antiquity. The statue's insurance value alone is $390 million.


source: http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/new-findings-about-nefertiti-as-berlin-exhibition-opens-a-870731-3.html

Quote:
Dietrich Wildung, the curator of the Berlin's Egyptian Museum -- and a long-time friend of Stierlin -- is even more emphatic in his dismissal of Stierlin's ideas. "We would not put an even remotely questionable object on display for 700,000 visitors to see every year," Wildung says.

Despite such doubts, Stierlin refuses to back down. "It's dishonest to display this object when you know it's not authentic," Stierlin insists.


source: http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/berlin-s-nefertiti-debate-calling-the-queen-s-authenticity-into-question-a-625719.html


If the German governments case for authenticity is so strong why have they not pursued legal action against the History channel or that author banning the airing of the documentary or book. Why. Because we know next to NOTHING about the origins of the Nefertiti bust or the bust in general. And the meaning of which could be open to many interpretations.

Quote:
However because my requests (for further information) were never replied to, I was not interested in accepting the invitation to attend the opening of the New Museum.


source: http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/berlin-s-nefertiti-trouble-egyptian-official-calls-museum-behavior-suspicious-a-656046.html

Quote:
Much of the show feels too dry. The description of the find, presented on the lower level, also has its shortcomings. The most exciting aspects are not mentioned.


source: http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/new-findings-about-nefertiti-as-berlin-exhibition-opens-a-870731-2.html

Quote:
The owners of the bust, however, are tired of the debate.


source: http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/new-findings-about-nefertiti-as-berlin-exhibition-opens-a-870731.html


My only question is how did the paint survive so well on the bust during the last three thousand years, when the scientists at the German museum housing the bust mention paint is flaking off enough to cause them concern to mention it.

Quote:
The scientists are particularly worried about the condition of the layered paint, bits of which have been flaking off for years.


source: http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/berlin-s-nefertiti-debate-calling-the-queen-s-authenticity-into-question-a-625719-2.html

Don't worry I won't carry this on any further but can't stand those who demonstrate arrogance towards others.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3733
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

#Sleep #Sleep #Sleep

Once again, look for the real scientific reports / sources. "Der Spiegel" and various scandal TV shows, again and again against better knowledge repeating old "news", long disproved, to regenerate public, sure do not belong to them ...

How many handicraft workshops, to be abandoned at any given time without really cleared, were found in Egypt? But probably this only one, right? Who will then say what is to be expected in such a workshop?

The uniqueness, material, and structure of the bust is explained quite logical in view of their function. It was a model, a model for the artisans to manufacture busts and portraits of the Queen for the actual demand / use. It was the "idol" after that the portraits were made and never thought of beeing presented, for example in a temple. And with plaster, a moldable material, it is easyer to produce an ideal picture than at first attempt in stone. And you do not need for it a second eye or must not think about the cut of the shoulders...

And by the way, the German "government" has nothing to do with the bust, and has no disposal violence. The bust is part of a foundation.
_________________
Ägyptologie - Forum (German)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Chrismackint
Account Suspended


Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 809

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again you respond with arrogance by using emoticons.

I'm not debating what should or should not be considered acceptable in an artists worshop, I am debating the evidence surrounding the busts origins in Egypt.

You don't even mention that the Germans themselves questioned the suitability of Borchardt to undertake such digs.

If it was not for Borchardt I would have no trouble with this find. It is simply this element of Borchardt that leaves me questioning why all this art at amarna discovered by him is so unique.

Spiegel metioned in Borchardts own words that he was aware that when forging you must only use old materials, as the quote of scraping off old paint and mixing it with a binding agent clearly shows.

Quote:


Borchardt must have been plagued by a guilty conscience, though. Otherwise he wouldn't have refused to publicly exhibit the bust. After being shipped to Germany, it was initially placed under lock and key. Only Kaiser Wilhelm II, as the supreme patron of the Oriental Society, received a copy as a Christmas gift.

It wasn't until 1924 that the director of the Egyptian Museum in Berlin, Heinrich Schäfer, held an exhibition -- against Borchardt's will.

Did Borchardt Forge Artifacts?

However, a seemingly farfetched accusation remains to be cleared up. The renowned Egyptologist Rolf Krauss, a curator at the Egyptian Museum in Berlin for more than 20 years and the custodian of the Nefertiti bust, claims that the folding altar used as compensation for the bust was fake.

Krauss theorizes that Borchardt, consumed with ambition, had the magnificent panel, with which he enticed Lefebvre, made by skilled stonemasons in Cairo.

But could the excavator have been capable of such contemptuous fraud? Some, who believe Borchardt was a hatchet man, say he could.

It is true that the scholar had been working at the German consulate general in Cairo since 1899. His official title was "academic attaché." But in reality Borchardt's job -- in the struggle against the other imperialistic powers, England, France and the United States -- was to fill Germany's museums with treasures from the days of the pharaohs.

His approach was often crude. In 1908, British Egyptologist Alan Gardiner accused him of "tactless and brusque behavior." Gardiner also claimed that the German had established a network of academic spies in the Nile Valley.

When confronted at home, the accused admitted that he had illegitimately acquired "a large number of photographs, drawings, private letters and foreign documents, and so on." In a letter to the foreign ministry, a colleague complained that a man who had "compromised German academia in such a way cannot remain in his position."

But the Indiana Jones of the German Empire survived the scandal. He was simply too good at what did. Borchardt often roamed through the souks of Cairo, where bearded merchants offered stolen antiquities for sale, as well as fakes made to look old with etching acid. Borchardt himself described the dealers' tricks. For example, it was common that "the men scratch off old paint, crush it and apply it with a binding agent."

There is even evidence that Borchardt made forgeries himself when he was a student. He imitated a cuneiform tablet and wrote logarithms onto it. A scholar fell for the practical joke.

Its interest peaked by the rumors, the restoration laboratory (set up by Italians) in Cairo examined the folding altar some time ago. When it was placed under ultraviolet light, it turned out that the supposed weathering was only a "darker base color" that had been painted onto the limestone.

"I think this is absolute proof of forgery," says Egyptologist Christian Loeben. His colleague Dietrich Wildung, however, calls the whole thing "rubbish."

Because the laboratory analysis remains unpublished to this day, the accusation cannot be thoroughly evaluated. It remains unclear how honestly Borchardt behaved 100 years ago when, using picks and shovels, he exposed the astonishing monuments from an era when the world held its breath and Akhenaton brought down the gods.


source: http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/new-findings-about-nefertiti-as-berlin-exhibition-opens-a-870731-2.html

You dismiss Spiegel so quickly as a illegitimate source, despite it's high standing as a source of credible investigative journalism that lead to the uncovering of political scandals in Germany in the past.

The only element that proves the authenticity of the bust through science is the make up of the plaster on the outside of the bust.

Normally when proving something you tend to base your claims on more than one proof.

I'm not interested in debating if this bust is real or not but feel we would not be in this situation if it was not for Borchardt being involved with it's discovery.

You can convince yourself it is real all you want, I am not going to waste brain cells arguing about it when we simply don't know enough about it to come to an informed decision.

A good scientist never stops asking questions as the popular phrase goes. If one can not ask these questions about the scientific proof for authenticity then their is something wrong.

Perhaps if you want to prove it is real you could make a bust using limestone from the site, cover it in plaster manufactured from the site, paint it using mineral pigments from Egypt while the plaster is still wet, and then bury it in sand near the site for five years and then dig it back up and see what condition of preservation the bust is in? Problem solved.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chrismackint
Account Suspended


Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 809

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
...during the third move (in a few years)...


Wasn't the bust only just relatively recently moved into the New Museum?

Can I ask why it is being moved again? I thought it was too delicate to move.

Regarding your scientific proof we have the following:

1. Pigments are authentic and match those used at Amarna.

2. Plaster on the bust matches that used at Amarna.

3. Photographs show Borchardt pictured with the bust in Amarna, Egypt in 1912.

I'm not doubting that from a scientific standpoint the bust is indeed authentic and passes all the tests.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3733
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The use of emoticons in Internet Forums is quite common. That this is considered to be "arrogant" is new to me, and I think this is a rumor... To say it polite.

It suits up to you, of course, to communicate on "Der Spiegel" level "science". But you can certainly not expect to be taken seriously with that,
at least not by me.

In the unspeakably long and tiresome debates on the subject here in the forum (which you've found via the search function) that ultimately always revolved only in the circle, I call the scientific works and sources, probably even more than once (and other members did it also). I do not see the slightest instigation for me to repeat them every few months, just because a tv-channel again a sow drives through the village, which was long ago slaughtered.
_________________
Ägyptologie - Forum (German)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3733
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrismackint wrote:
Lutz wrote:
...during the third move (in a few years)...


Wasn't the bust only just relatively recently moved into the New Museum?

Can I ask why it is being moved again? I thought it was too delicate to move. ...

She was taken by a specialized firm in a specially crafted (according to their dimensions) air-conditioned box from Berlin-Charlottenburg to Berlin-Mitte (about 7 km) into the "Old Museum". I was there when the two guys (every time the same) from the transport company put the bust in the box... In the period between the close of the collection in Berlin-Charlottenburg and the opening of the interim solution in the "Old Museum" CT scans and X-ray examinations were performed. This was possible / made in the premises of the "Charitee" (a well-known university hospital), located also in Berlin-Mitte, about 1-2 km from the Museum Island. The risk of a possible replacement of the stucco layer was discovered there (the cavity).

After completion of the new (and old) building for the Egyptian collection in Berlin she came from the "Old Museum" in the same way to the "New Museum" (500 m).

Chrismackint wrote:
... I'm not doubting that from a scientific standpoint the bust is indeed authentic and passes all the tests.

So, then I wonder what the problem is? Is your life just plain boring?
_________________
Ägyptologie - Forum (German)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Chrismackint
Account Suspended


Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 809

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
It suits up to you, of course, to communicate on "Der Spiegel" level "science". But you can certainly not expect to be taken seriously with that,
at least not by me.


Difficult to see how I can take someone seriously when not once do they question the validity of the bust in a rational way when the discovery was made by someone with questionable intentions.

Lutz wrote:
So, then I wonder what the problem is? Is your life just plain boring?


Just another personal attack that happens everytime this topic comes up. Hard to take someone seriously when they are incapable of communicating without resorting to personal attacks.

My problem is that a known forger who fooled a leading academic with one of his fakes discovered this bust.

By saying my life is plain boring by asking these questions you haven't just insulted me, but anyone who visits this forum.

Don't worry I won't pursue this any further as your complete lack of respect leaves me with no further desire to frequent this forum. Even an idiot can see your inability to at least consider the other side of the argument means that your too close to this bust and the people who run the museum.

Anyone can start their own forum these days where it is possible to have open discussion on sensetive topics, unlike here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3733
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrismackint wrote:
Lutz wrote:
It suits up to you, of course, to communicate on "Der Spiegel" level "science". But you can certainly not expect to be taken seriously with that,
at least not by me.

Difficult to see how I can take someone seriously when not once do they question the validity of the bust in a rational way when the discovery was made by someone with questionable intentions. ...

I do not see his "questionable intentions". Apart from that were already a few more people involved in the discovery and, above all, present...

Chrismackint wrote:
Lutz wrote:
So, then I wonder what the problem is? Is your life just plain boring?

Just another personal attack...

The question of the meaning and purpose of your, in my view, contradictory reasoning is a "personal attack"? Very strange ideas you have here...

Chrismackint wrote:
... no further desire to frequent this forum. ...

For the second or third time? I slowly lose track...

Chrismackint wrote:
... Anyone can start their own forum these days where it is possible to have open discussion on sensetive topics, unlike here.

I can not remember that this someone here has forbidden, also not for you. You can, however, also not forbid anyone to respond to your posts. Also not me...
_________________
Ägyptologie - Forum (German)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Chrismackint
Account Suspended


Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 809

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darling....

It would give a lot of people no greater pleasure than to know the bust is real, and that forever this African object will remain a source of German national identity. The irony is only lost on you Germans.

Quote:
She is even portrayed in Lego and as a relative of Donald Duck at the Berlin show.


source: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-07/beauty-queen-nefertiti-in-spotlight-berlin-denies-tricks.html

source: http://www.urbansketcher.ca/2013/02/06/visit-to-neues-museum-then-v-leaves-berlin/

Sounds like a really credible museum Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3733
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Chrismackint wrote:
... no further desire to frequent this forum. ...

For the second or third time? I slowly lose track...

Noteworthy your adherence to principle ... Is on your statements always so much reliance?

Chrismackint wrote:
... Sounds like a really credible museum ...

You must know this, with your pronounced "Der Spiegel" / "Discovery - Channel" professional competence ... And the many visits there. Then, to judge over something what you do not know, for you is surely completely away, right?

P.S.: I am for shure not your "Darling". I was still nauseous today...
_________________
Ägyptologie - Forum (German)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Chrismackint
Account Suspended


Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 809

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
P.S.: I am for shure not your "Darling". I was still nauseous today...


Sounds like your nauseous everyday. Surprising you are unable to notice when someone is patronizing you.

The many visits to Spiegel betray that their is very little to no information about this Nefertiti anywhere. I don't know about you but to me that comes across as very strange.

Quote:
One might think that the debate is superfluous -- that the matter could be settled simply by testing the bust's age. Unfortunately it's not so simple. And its further complicated by the fact that, the closer one considers the Nefertiti bust, the clearer it becomes that very little is known about it.


As I said before from a scientific standpoint the bust comes across as authentic. It ticks all the right boxes. But the selectiveness of the scientific testing leaves the door open to doubt. Your not testing anything that Borchardt could not have had control over. The paint lacking sufficient organic matter is just a lucky coincidence.

Quote:
The organic agent used to bind the paint is also not available in sufficient quantities to enable testing.


If the bust is real then the museum won't have any issues with testing the straw in the crown and putting this matter to rest once and for all.

Quote:
The traces of straw in Nefertiti's headdress could, in theory, also be used. But testing would have be refined such that only a very tiny amount of material is used to avoid harming the bust, Simon says.


source: http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/berlin-s-nefertiti-debate-calling-the-queen-s-authenticity-into-question-a-625719-2.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chrismackint
Account Suspended


Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 809

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In preparation for the first public exposition of the bust in Berlin, Germany, two metallic pins were drilled in the base of the bust inside of the core (sometime before 1924). The larger pin in central positioning had a length of 120 mm and a diameter of 13 mm (Fig 2a); a second pin in the right half of the bust had a length of 39 mm and a diameter of 7 mm.


Quote:
Thick layers of stucco at the level of the shoulders (Fig 2b) and in the rear part of the crown were identified. The maximum thickness of the stucco layer was 25 mm in the rear area of the crown (Fig 2a). Two different stucco layers were distinguished by their attenuation values (Fig 2c): the inner layer, with a mean range of attenuation values of 576–641 HU (SD, 69–131 HU), and the outer layer, with a mean range of attenuation values of 822–888 HU (SD, 81– 148 HU). The higher attenuation values of the outer layer correlated with a higher physical density, caused by a greater amount of the limestone additive. At the level of the shoulders (Fig2b), no different layers could be delineated (mean range of attenuation values, 901–925 HU; SD, 42–51 HU). In both the shoulders and the layers of the crown, a great many inclusions, typical for a mixed material, with air equivalent attenuation values as low as "536 HU could be delineated. These inclusions had a diameter of up to 5 mm (right shoulder, ventral area). In addition to the inclusions, filamentous fissures orthogonal and parallel to the surface could be delineated (Fig 2d).


Quote:
The location of a previously recognized defect in the ventral surface of the thorax was delineated (Fig 2d). The restoration performed between 1980 and 1984 (9) was done with a homogeneous material of higher attenuation values(mean range of attenuation values, 1050–1060 HU; SD, 66–77 HU) than that of the surrounding stucco. Many air-equivalent hypoattenuating areas in the area of contact could be recognized. This finding suggested that the defect was refilled with new material and that the original pieces of stucco were not reattached.



Quote:
The area in the left side of the rear area of the crown, however, appeared particularly fragile (Fig 2e). The fissure adjoined directly dorsally to a large defect in the stucco layer, which was visible externally and was approximately 99 x 60 mm. This was of historical origin, because it was previously described by Ludwig Borchardt in his discovery reports from 1923.


Quote:
The eye sockets were roughly symmetric, with a depth of approximately 3 mm (Fig 2f). The left eye seemed to have never been
filled with an inlay (10) and contained no lens and no pupil. Although this finding would be considered very unusual by today’s standards, the bust was probably just a working model at the time of its creation, serving as a copy model.


Quote:
The face of the core was very delicately carved, appeared highly symmetric, and could have certainly been a realistic portrait of the queen. It differed in some important details from that of the visible outer surface (Fig 3c).


Quote:
The corners of the eyelids showed less depth and appeared less three-dimensional. There were creases around the corners of the mouth and cheeks, a less harmonious nose ridge, and less prominent cheekbones. The nose showed a slight bump at the height of the chondral transition (Fig 3e, 3f). The area around the cheekbones of the inner face appeared less three-dimensional than they were in the outer face, where they were shaped more prominently. Both ears bared only distinct traces of being remodeled (Figs2f, 3g, 3h). They were based on the very detailed limestone composition. The ear canals could have been shaped with different tools. The asymmetry in the shape seemed acquired, owing to damage, and was more prominent in the left ear (Fig 3h). The right ear canal showed a pointed end, which suggested the use of a drill-type tool,whereas the left ear canal ended bluntly.


Quote:
Retouching the creases in the corners of the mouth and equalizing the nose ridge could have been seen as embellishments, whereas the more pronounced shaping of the eyelid corners would have been considered unfavorable. The entirety of the changes allowed the conclusion that the bust had been individualized and personalized but not optimized.


Quote:
Nevertheless, various pictures were known that confirm the lineaments of the inner sculpture. In an unfinished representation of Nefertiti (Egyptian Museum, Berlin, Germany; inventory no. 21220) from the studio of Thutmose, she was seen with a rather flat and slightly bumpy nose ridge, as shown in figure 67 of the article by Priese (17).


Quote:
The variation of the ear canals in the otherwise quite symmetric ears could have been explained by the flint inclusions situated predominantly in the right side of the back of the head.


Quote:
Furthermore, different fissures parallel to the surface were found in the shoulders, the lower surface of the bust, and the rear part of the crown. For this reason, very careful handling of the bust and the absolute avoidance of any focal pressure and shearing forces in the regions covered with thick stucco layers is imperative. The details of the multilayer stucco on the rear part of the crown with a higher attenuation of the outer layer and an inhomogeneous bonding between the two layers represent an additional material-related weakness of Nefertiti’s bust.


source:

Alexander Huppertz,MD, & Dietrich Wildung, PhD, & Barry J. Kemp,MA, & Tanja Nentwig, & Patrick Asbach,MD, & Franz Maximilian Rasche,MD, & Bernd Hamm,MD.(2009). Nondestructive Insights into Composition of the Sculpture of Egyptian Queen Nefertiti with CT. Radiology,251(1), 233-240.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3733
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrismackint wrote:
... The many visits to Spiegel betray that their is very little to no information about this Nefertiti anywhere. ...

That you know very little (or better: not really try to know more than "Spiegel" and TV-Shows give you) means not at all, that there is no reliable information ...

Bénédicte Savoy : Nofretete - Eine deutsch-französische Affäre - 1912-1931. - Köln/Weimar/Wien : Böhlau Verlag, 2011. - ISBN : 9783412208110. - 229 p., 42 figs.
Quote:
OEB 162270 : Against the background of the ongoing discussions about the legitimate ownership of the Nefertiti-bust (Berlin, Egyptian Museum 21300), the author presents a detailed description of the history of the bust's discovery, the circumstances under which it came into possession of the Egyptian Museum in Berlin, and the subsequent conflicts within Egyptology that it has stirred. It is stressed that the affair has its roots in the hostility between France and Germany during and after the Great War (1914-1918) which, to a high degree, influenced the Egyptological policy of Pierre Lacau, then the director general of the Egyptian Service des Antiquités. In the final part of the book the author provides the complete documents relating to the Nefertiti-affair, both in French and in German translation.


Friederike Seyfried : Die Büste der Nofretete - Dokumentation des Fundes und der Fundteilung 1912/1913. - In: Jahrbuch Preußischer Kulturbesitz 46. - 2010. - pp. 133 - 202.
Quote:
OEB 171801 : The author publishes the records from the division of finds from el-Amarna, now in the possession of the Stiftung Preußischer Kulturbesitz and the Deutsche Orientgesellschaft, that relate to the Berlin ownership of the bust of Nefertiti. She also describes the course of connected events. The documents consist of abstracts from the site notebook (6-7 December 1912, 20-21 January 1913), the photographs of the bust which were shown at the division of finds, the minutes of the division meeting, the find card for the bust, and two letters by Günther Roeder and Bruno Güterbock from 1924. All documents are published in photographs and transcription; the French minutes of the division meeting are also given in German translation.


Dietrich Wildung : Die Büste der Nofretete - Ägyptisches Museum und Papyrussammlung, Berlin. - [Vernissage Meisterwerke]. - Heidelberg : Vernissage-Verlag, 2009. - 18 p., 28 figs in colour [ills].

Henri Stierlin : Le buste de Néfertiti - Une imposture de l'égyptologie. - Gollion : Infolio, 2009. - ISBN : 9782884741385. - 137 p., ills, plan.

Bergerot : Review Stierlin - Le Buste de Nefertiti. - In: Afrique and Orient 53. - 2009. - pp. 59 - 62.

Karen Polinger Foster : The Eyes of Nefertiti. - In: From the Banks of the Euphrates - FS Slotsky. - Winona Lake : Eisenbrauns, 2008. - pp. 83 - 97.

Blaha / Demuth : Nefertitis Bust - An Inside View. - In: SOMATOM. - 2007. - pp. 52 - 53.

Carola Wedel : Nofretete und das Geheimnis von Amarna. - [Zaberns Bildbände zur Archäologie - Sonderbände der Antiken Welt]. - Mainz : von Zabern, 2005. - ISBN : 380533544X. - 72 p., 105 figs [ills, plans, mostly in colour].

Sally-Ann Ashton : Egyptian sculptors' models - Functions and fashions in the 18th Dynasty. - In: Invention and innovation - The social context of technological change 2: Egypt, the Aegean and the Near East, 1650-1150 BC. - [Proceedings of a conference held at the McDonald Institute for Archaeological Research, Cambridge, 4-6 September 2002]. - Oxford : Oxbow Books, 2004. - pp. 176 - 199.

Sascha Priester : "Eigentlich mochte ich Nofretete nicht" - Interview mit einem Kenner der Epoche Echnatons. - In: P.M. History. - March 2003. - pp. 24 - 26.
Quote:
Interview with Dietrich Wildung.


Elke Roik : Der Kopf der Nofretete, eine Maßarbeit?. - In: Bulletin de la Société d'Égyptologie de Genève 25. - 2002-03. - pp. 131 - 151.

Lynda Green : Crowned Heads - Royal Regalia of the Amarna & Pre- & Post-Amarna Periods. - In: Amarna Letters 4. - 2000. - pp. 60 - 75.

R. Krauss / H.-G. Wiedemann : Das Schwarze in Nofretetes Auge. - In: Jahrbuch Preußischer Kulturbesitz 34. - 1997. - pp. 211 - 222, 2 figs [ills, 1 colour].
Quote:
OEB 171688 : The authors reconstruct the history of a material sample (bees wax with unknown pigment) from the eye of the bust of Nefertiti in the Berlin Egyptian Museum.


Dorothea Arnold : The Royal Women of Amarna - Images of Beauty from Ancient Egypt. - [With contributions by James P. Allen and L. Green]. - New York : The Metropolitan Museum of Art, 1996. - XXII, 169 p., colour frontispiece, map, plan, fig., ill. including colour). - ISBN : 0-87099-816-1.
Quote:
OEB 40724 (AEB 1996.0569) : This richly illustrated book was published in conjunction with the exhibition "Queen Nefertiti and the Royal Women: Images of Beauty from Ancient Egypt" in the Metropolitan Museum of Art from October 1996 to February 1997. It serves as an introduction and guide to the exhibition and is itself a landmark art-historical exploration of a period when the confluence of religion, art and politics resulted in a unique epoch in Egyptian history. After a chronological table of the Amarna Period, a genealogy of the royal family, a brief introduction to the Amarna religion by Allen and a survey of the royal women of Amarna by L. Green the artistic aspects of the period are highlighted in much more detail by Dorothea Arnold. Extensive attention is given to the artistic revolution in the early years of king Amenhotep IV/Akhnaton, the grotesque style, first manneristic as present in the decoration of the Karnak temples of the king and later more sensuous at Amarna after its foundation in the fifth regnal year. A number of examples of sculpture are described. A separate essay is devoted to the workshop of the sculptor Thutmose, where a deposit of works of art was found, allowing to follow the entire creative process through an examination of the work of the sculptor and his assistants. The author discusses the gypsum plaster heads and their relation to the stone sculptures, the sculptor of the MMA's red quartzite head of queen Tiye, images of princesses and the technique of composite statuary, and images of queen Nefertiti each emphasizing different aspects of her: the famous painted bust and an unfinished limestone head from the Ägyptisches Museum Berlin as the definitive image, the Memphis head from the Cairo Museum as the ruler, the Berlin yellow quartzite head as image of beauty, the Berlin limestone statuette showing Nefertiti in advanced age, the Berlin granodiorite head of Nefertiti by the youngest sculptor of the workshop as a monumentalization. She ends with listing the four sculptors from the workshop whose works have been tentatively identified. The author proceeds with an essay on aspects of the royal female image during the Amarna period, dealing with: Nefertiti as Lady of the Two Lands, and possibly as a goddess on Akhnaton's sarcophagus; the shrine stelae showing the family and the fertility aspect; the daughters as sun children. Her final essay is devoted to the post-Amarna period, the stylistic developments of which are exemplified by the Louvre bust of an adolescent princess wearing a sidelock wig, by a headless statuette in Philadelphia, and by the upper part of a seated mature woman in the Museo Archeologico in Florence.


Dietrich Wildung : Einblicke - Zerstörungsfreie Untersuchungen an altägyptischen Objekten. - In: Jahrbuch Preußischer Kulturbesitz 29. - 1992. - pp. 133 - 156.
Quote:
OEB 35725 (AEB 1992.0505) : Three objects in the Egyptian Museum of Berlin were subjected to non-destructive examination using X-ray and CT-scan techniques. The well-known portrait head of Teye (inv. no. ÄMP 21834) has a head-dress of multiple layers of fine linen, covered originally with tiny beads of blue glass. Underneath this head-dress the examination showed the presence of a different type of head-dress known as the khat, made of silver. Behind the ears, on each side a metal uraeus can be seen. The secondary head-dress was topped by a feather-crown which still exists and has been replaced on the head. The change in head-dress testifies to the queen's elevation to divine status, presumably after the death of her husband. Examination of the famous portrait bust of Nofretete (ÄMP 21300) showed considerable additions of gypsum layers over a stone core, particularly at the shoulders. A reserve head of the Old Kingdom, belonging to Kahotep (ÄMP 16455), turned out to consist of a gypsum layer modeled over a gypsum core of lesser density. This core was produced in two parts from a negative mould.


Rolf Krauss : Nefertiti - A drawing-board beauty?. - In: Amarna Letters 1. - 1991. - pp. 46 - 49.

Rolf Krauss : 1913-1988 - 75 Jahre Büste der Nofretete in Berlin - I. - In: Jahrbuch Preußischer Kulturbesitz 24. - 1987. - pp. 7 - 124.
Quote:
OEB 31589 (AEB 1987.0022) : This is the first part of an account of the controversies surrounding the famous bust of Nefertiti since its discovery in Ludwig Borchardt's excavations at el-Amarna in 1913. After a discussion of the circumstances of the discovery, the subsequent division of the finds and the acquisition of the bust by the Egyptian Museum in Berlin, it is related how its publication in 1924 caused an immediate demand for its return to Egypt. Although Heinrich Schäfer was willing to exchange the bust for a number of, in his view, superior pieces, the transaction was vetoed in 1935 by Hitler.


Rolf Krauss : 1913-1988 - 75 Jahre Büste der Nofretete in Berlin - II. - In: Jahrbuch Preußischer Kulturbesitz 28. - 1992. - pp. 123 - 157.

Wildung / Zwicker / Hosten / Felix : Nofretete - Analyse der Büste mit dreidimensionaler CT. - In: Deutsches Ärzteblatt 34/35. - 1992. - pp. 1753-5.

Markus Mode : Nofretete - Ein Nachspiel zu den Ausgrabungen der Deutschen Orient-Gesellschaft in Tell el-Amarna. - In: Hallesche Beiträge zur Orientwissenschaft, Halle 6. - 1984. - pp. 37 - 45.
Quote:
AEB 84.0042 : The author relates how the famous bust of Nefertiti was allotted to the Berlin museum after its discovery and adds some remarks concerning its subsequent fate.


Rolf Krauss : Der Bildhauer Thutmose in Amarna - Mit einem Beitrag von Heinrich Newesely. - In: Jahrbuch Preussischer Kulturbesitz, Berlin 20. - 1983. - pp. 119 - 132, fig., ill., plan.
Quote:
AEB 83.0963 : The famous bust of Nefertiti has been attributed to the sculptor Thutmose because an ivory fragment bearing his name was found in the vicinity of the bust. The author publishes this fragment (Ägyptisches Museum Berlin, Inv. No. 21193) and identifies it as the upper part of a blinker used for horses. Although several other examples of such objects are known, this is the only specimen made of ivory and inscribed with hieroglyphs. The name of the sculptor and other theophorous names of the Amarna Period are discussed in some detail. In this connection the author also publishes a fragmentary back-pillar of a statue bearing the name of Tuthmosis III (Ägyptisches Museum Berlin, Inv. No. 4166). He also considers the question of whether Thutmose was the owner of house P 47.2 or P 47.3 in Amarna (the blinker was found between the two houses). Since P 47.2 is equipped with a stable and P 47.3 is not, the former house is attributed to Thutmose. In the appendix H. Newesely reports on the technical analysis of the blinker.


Cells-Margaretha Girardet : Die Dame vom Nil. - In: Art - Das Kunstmagazin, Hamburg, No. 9. - 1982. - pp. 44 - 55., ill., some in colour.
Quote:
AEB 83.0026 : The author describes the history of the famous Nefertiti bust in Berlin subsequent to its discovery.


H.G. Wiedemann / G. Bayer : The Bust of Nefertiti - The Analytical Approach. - In: Analytical Chemistry, Washington 54. - 1982. - pp. 619A - 628A.
Quote:
AEB 82.0589 : Chemische Analyse aller bei der Bemalung der Berliner Büste der Nofretete verwendeten Farben (rot = Eisenoxyd, Grün = Grünes Basisches Acetat von Kupfer (?), Gelb = Orpigment, Schwarz = Kohle, Blau = Ägyptisch Blau, CaCu (Si4O10)). Dazu genaue, auf Experimenten und theoretischen Überlegungen beruhende Angaben über den technischen Vorgang für Gewinnung und Verwendung von Ägyptisch Blau.


Reinhard Mussgnug : Wem gehört Nofretete? - Anmerkungen zu dem deutsch-deutschen Streit um den ehemals preussischen Kulturbesitz. - [Vortrag gehalten vor der Berliner Juristischen Gesellschaft am 1. Dezember 1976]. - Berlin / New York : de Gruyter, 1977. - 40 p. - [Schriftenreihe der juristischen Gesellschaft e.V. Berlin 52].
Quote:
AEB 77.0550 : Juridical treatise on the rightfulness of the West German ownership of the famous head of Nefertiti, which is disputed by the DDR.


Rudolf Anthes : Die Büste der Königin Nofret Ete. - Berlin : Verlag Gebr. Mann, 1954. - 23 p., ill.
Quote:
AEB 54.3183 : Après avoir donné une description technique du buste de Nefertiti Anthes entre dans des considérations esthetiques sur cette pièce qui représente un sommet dans l'art du XIVe s. av. J.-C. A la fin de la plaquette l'auteur donne le récit de la découverte en décembre 1912 de l'atelier d'un sculpteur qui s'appelait probablement Touthmosis, et examine ensuite quelle a pu être la destination du buste. Il montre que le buste a dû servir de modèle pour exécuter des séries de statues. Bien que la pièce soit anépigraphe on peut être certain qu'elle représente Nefertiti, étant donné qu'elle reproduit les traits d'une reine d'un âge déjà mûr. Cette identification se trouve confirmée par le rapprochement avec des oeuvres qui représentent Nefertiti d'une manière indiscutable.


Ludwig Keimer : Le musée égyptologique de Berlin. - In: Cahiers d'Histoire Égyptienne série III, fasc. 1. - 1950. - pp. 27 - 41.
Quote:
AEB 50.1396 : Après avoir rapporté dans quelles circonstances furent réunies les collections égyptiennes du musée de Berlin, Keimer montre comment R. Lepsius en dirigea les destinées. Il évoque: aussi ses relations avec H. Brugsch. Dans la dernière partie de son article, il donne un aperçu sur les principales acquisitions durant un siècle et émet quelques considérations sur le buste de Nefertiti.


Julius Meier-Graefe : Die Büste der Königin Nofretete. - In: Kunst und Künstler 28. - 1930. - pp. 479 - 481, 1 pl.

Ludwig Borchardt : Porträts der Königin Nofret-ete aus den Grabungen 1912/13 in Tell el-Amarna. - Leipzig : Hinrichs, 1923. - 40 p., 6 pl., 35 ill. - [Ausgrabungen der Deutschen Orient-Gesellschaft in Tell el-Amarna 3]. - [WVDOG 44].

And of course not at least, the reports by Ludwig Borchardt from the excavations at Amarna : Ausgrabungen in Tell el-Amarna, 1911-14 - Vorläufige Berichte. - In: Mitteilungen der Deutschen Orientgesellschaft (46, 1911, pp. 1 - 32 / 50, 1912, pp. 1 - 40 / 52, 1913, pp. 1 - 55 / 55, 1914, pp. 3 - 45).
_________________
Ägyptologie - Forum (German)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3733
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrismackint wrote:
... source:

Alexander Huppertz,MD, & Dietrich Wildung, PhD, & Barry J. Kemp,MA, & Tanja Nentwig, & Patrick Asbach,MD, & Franz Maximilian Rasche,MD, & Bernd Hamm,MD.(2009). Nondestructive Insights into Composition of the Sculpture of Egyptian Queen Nefertiti with CT. Radiology,251(1), 233-240.


The complete article is online available, free to download : PDF, 580 kB .
_________________
Ägyptologie - Forum (German)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Chrismackint
Account Suspended


Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 809

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And your just rude bombarding me with all that.

At least I selected quotes and highlighted important points in a way that was conducive to some sort of discussion.

But your not interested in having a discussion. Guess this is the usual tactic. Bombard them with information so they look like they don't know what their talking about thus discrediting any notion of doubt.

I'm not sure what your calling science in Germany these days but if "Nondestructive Insights into Composition of the Sculpture of Egyptian Queen Nefertiti with CT" is anything to go by then 70% of what you have provided me with is fluff.

Just like in this so called scientific report in which the majority of material pertained to the history of Amarna, which in a credible scientific analysis only FACTS should be mentioned not PERCEPTIONS of historical events. The CT scan was supposed to be about scientific examination of the bust and evidence based, yet it is filled up with meaningless guff about a hypothetical situation in which the bust is thought to have existed. It is this hypothetical situation that is then provided as evidence, as a way of explaining the illogical bust. Should it not be the other way around, with evidence gathered from the bust being compared to similar material at the site and providing the explanations as to why it is so different from all other busts found at the site.

Borchardt seemed to be very interested in ancient paint and the components that went into making that paint Laughing

Quote:
Chemical analysis of the dyes and pigments used on the bust was first carried out by Friedrich Rathgen and published by Ludwig Borchardt in 1923.


source:

H. G. Wiedemann & G. Bayer.(1982). The Bust of Nefertiti. Analytical Chemistry, 54(4)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 2 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group