Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The Mysteries of Nefertiti
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Chrismackint
Account Suspended


Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 809

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't believe I am arguing about this bust. You've got your scientific proof that it is authentic. I couldn't care less about it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3576
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrismackint wrote:
... Borchardt seemed to be very interested in ancient paint and the components that went into making that paint ...

Something like that ... How frightening / surprising / suspicious ... An archaeologist who is interested in his findings ... A purchaser of artifacts for museums and private collectors with an interest in the techniques of counterfeiters ... Of course that is absolutely suspicious. Rolling Eyes
_________________
Ägyptologie - Forum (German)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Chrismackint
Account Suspended


Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 809

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Adolf Erman the excavators teacher described an incident which Borchardt had caused an act of fraud "thus he made a clay tablet which was completely akin to the authentic ones", "Borchardt put the tablet into a box with genuine tablets".


source: http://tim-theegyptians.blogspot.com.au/2009/06/i-will-prove-nefertiti-is-stolen_14.html


Lutz wrote:
Something like that ... How frightening / surprising / suspicious ... An archaeologist who is interested in his findings ... A purchaser of artifacts for museums and private collectors with an interest in the techniques of counterfeiters ... Of course that is absolutely suspicious. Rolling Eyes


Laughing Laughing Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3576
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrismackint wrote:
Quote:
Adolf Erman the excavators teacher described an incident which Borchardt had caused an act of fraud "thus he made a clay tablet which was completely akin to the authentic ones", "Borchardt put the tablet into a box with genuine tablets".


source: http://tim-theegyptians.blogspot.com.au/2009/06/i-will-prove-nefertiti-is-stolen_14.html

Even if the end of this nice little story, from more than obvious reasons is omitted by the author, it exists... At the end Borchardt informed namely about the forgery from his own hand (not Erman reveals the fake, he just tells a story...) and explained it: He has made it ​​to demonstrate how easy it is also supposed experts to deceive. There is not the slightest indication that he tryed hereby to effect an ideational or material enrichment.

And, moreover, between the forgery of a clay table and a bust from a complex structure like that of Nefertiti, under the conditions of an ongoing excavation in the middle of the desert, sometimes with around 100 audience (domestic and foreign), then probably is some difference in degree of conceivability?
_________________
Ägyptologie - Forum (German)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Chrismackint
Account Suspended


Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 809

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
And, moreover, between the forgery of a clay table and a bust from a complex structure like that of Nefertiti, under the conditions of an ongoing excavation in the middle of the desert, sometimes with around 100 audience (domestic and foreign), then probably is some difference in degree of conceivability?


Yes you are right. It would be difficut to hide. And the forger most probably would have told everyone by now.

Regarding scientific proof we have the following:

1. Pigments are authentic and match those used at Amarna.

2. Plaster on the bust matches that used at Amarna.

3. Photographs show Borchardt pictured with the bust in Amarna, Egypt in 1912.

4. Busts found in Tutankhamun's tomb show a similar design, being of similar stylistic traits and also covered in plaster. Stylistically the bust exhibits traits that the forger would not be aware of, such as the tail of the ureaus is very thin on such busts of the time( refer to Tutankhamun mannequin), unlike portrayls on larger statues of the time.

Tutankhamun on lotus shows a complete departure from anything else seen before in AE bust portraiture, so the unique shoulders of this bust are completely understandable in the context of the experimental art from this time.

5.4th Dynasty busts made of plaster show the same type of wear as this bust, most noticeably the ears are all broken.

6. Regarding use I daresay this bust was worthless due to it not being damaged or plundered by thieves so am guessing it is a experimental work to test the effect of plaster on stone. When you take the unique political and artistic aspects occuring at this time it can be understood how this work would be part of the experimental process.

The artist was most probably a brilliant person and experimented with lots of different techniques and re-invented ways of doing things much like the great artistis of Europe.

7. Unique design of the necklace is very similar to Harsinakht's coffin from the British museum. Tutankhamun's corset shows a high degree of variety was able to be achieved in AE collar design.

8. Other busts from this period that are also covered in plaster have survived, with all their vivid pigments attatched, such as those from Tutankhamun's tomb.

9. Duplicates of this bust fail to capture the unique character of this bust providing further evidence for authenticity.

10. Hay in the headdress is a sign the bust was made near animals, and Thutmose is thought to have a stable at his house.

I agree that the bust does pass all the tests. My only conclusion is that it is indeed authentic.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
karnsculpture
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 May 2010
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never doubted that the bust was authentic, but what convinces me is the other work from the Tuthmose studio, much of it experimental, demonstrating a range of techniques. When you visit the Neues Museum you can view a good number of pieces found at the same location in one go, and this culminates in arguably the most finished piece, Nefertiti.

I do think that the true purpose of the bust was to guide artists - it was the template for representations in 2D and 3D of the queen - demonstrating all of her typical traits meaning that anyone, literate or not, would know who was depicted in the city, houses or tombs. The Royal Family are usually represented in a consistent manner once in Amarna - for example Akhenaten with the bag wig or blue crown (more often the latter), Meritaten bald or with the side-lock and pointed chin, Tiye with the long wig / hair and so on. It was all about branding and recognition for the populace.

As far as the programme goes, the good aspects of it were some of the sections with Egyptologists such as Barry Kemp explaining the purpose of the boundary stele, and depictions of Nefertiti from tombs, as well as the visit to the quarry with the year 16 inscription.

Unfortunately the programme went rapidly downhill in the second half with the discussion around whether the bust was real or not, or whether it was originally found where the records state it was. Nothing was convincing, certainly not the testimony of the forger Greenhalgh. The museum was involved in the documentary and did refute Greenhalgh's ideas quite effectively I thought. Yes, there was an element of good luck, but you can say the same about Tutankhamun's tomb, or the finds from the Karnak Cachette - in fact any find with materials in good condition after so much time.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3576
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just another remark...

One could of course argue the bust was not made / forged on site, but for example in Cairo, and brought from there to Amarna. However, the bust was not a single and isolated find. She was part of a fund complex of several objects, positioned under, beside and above the bust in undisturbed layers.

The assumption, Borchardt would have been able under the terms of the ongoing excavation to fake, unnoticed from others, such a (well documented) find situation is simply absurd. If someone claiming something like that, he might as well say Borchardt could walk on water...
_________________
Ägyptologie - Forum (German)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Chrismackint
Account Suspended


Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 809

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not wanting to start an argument, but to me their seems enough evidence to make a decision either way about the bust. It seems to just come down to a matter of what you want to believe. I could make 10 valid evidence based points on why I think the bust is fake, but for my sanity’s sake I won’t.

But what I have noticed in all this is how so many people jump to the defence of the bust being authentic. Almost as if the cult of the aten family is still alive and well in our modern day society. In fact I could almost research that topic and write a PhD on it. The evidence for this is everywhere, from Chancellor Merkel’s admiration for it, to the way women identify Nefertiti as a strong women and as the gauge of feminine beauty; and in a way gain their own identity through Nefertiti. The way Germany derives its national identity from this bust truly is evidence of a modern day cult. Feminism plays a big role in reviving this aten family cult. You just need to look at the women protest movements around the world featuring masks of the Nefertiti bust to see evidence for this.

What fascinates me is how far from the truth this is. Nefertiti was subordinate to Akhenaten and only portrayed how he wanted. Merely a political tool. There is nothing strong or feminine about that.

That images of the aten family lounging around the palace with children evokes feelings of warmth and enlightenment among our modern society simply astounds me when nothing could be further from the truth. We see this display of affection as their attempt to humanize themselves and portray themselves like normal people, and in our erroneous perception we feel they are like us. But this is not what is happening. Like the modern day dictators of today they are simply acting out a propaganda display to re-enforce their family’s power.

The majority of normal people from amarna show signs of abnormal bone development due to their bones being affected by carrying weight that exceeds the natural capacity of the human body to handle along with a lot of fractures and malnutrition. To me this shows how the aten family were nothing but megalomaniac dictators on par with modern day dictators and their cults of personality. Yet these aten royals somehow transcend cultural and ethnic barriers in their ability to appeal to people and awe them into perpetuating their cult. The changes they made to their society could be equated with those made by the Nazi’s. How ironic it is that we should venerate this bust with so much fanfare that it has attained a celebrity status in it’s own right and an importance disproportionate from reality and void of reason.

Nefertiti should not be celebrated as an icon of femininity, beauty, female accomplishment or enlightened humanism. The aten family should be outed as the tyrants they truly were and are.

When presented with images of Stalin or Saddam with children we react with revulsion. A Lenin or Hitler bust would be mocked. Yet why is this aten family any different to them.

What does this tell us about our society.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3576
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can not remember that ever a Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany would have expressed their views about the bust of Nefertiti. This is simply mischief. Maybe you should not believe everything that is said in flashy television reports...

As I still said, the government has no influence on the bust. It belongs to the "Stiftung Preußischer Kulturbesitz" (Russian Cultural Heritage Foundation).
It is also not a symbol of Germanys "national identity". She is the "most beautiful ambassador of Egypt in Germany", as the Egyptian ambassador in Germany on the occasion of the installation in the Old Museum very aptly put it.

If anything, she was a symbol of Germany`s division: I was 25 years old when I could see the bust for the first time, although I have lived almost 10 km away from the exhibition venue in Berlin West...
_________________
Ägyptologie - Forum (German)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3576
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pr ussian, not "Russian", of course..., sorry (the forum software seems to execute the change automatically).
_________________
Ägyptologie - Forum (German)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Chrismackint
Account Suspended


Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 809

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to apologize to you Lutz, and the forum for being so rude. Sorry. I'm just feeling defensive because I came from forums where I was singled out and subjected to personal attacks, something which happened after they realized that I was working at a well known fast food restaurant chain.They even harassed me through ebay and my e-mail account up until as recently as a few months ago until I decided to change my online stuff.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3576
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem, forget it ... And it probably plays also no role what job someone has ("Laymen built the ark, professionals the Titanic." - A German stand up comedian).

I'm only grumpy when someone false statements reflects unaudited. Especially about people I know personally... And I think it's important, especially in our media age, to deal with the real sources. And these are now usually the printed reports of the excavators... No tv shows, even if they are moderated by Egyptologists.

Greetings, Lutz.
_________________
Ägyptologie - Forum (German)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Chrismackint
Account Suspended


Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 809

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
My husband is an astrophysicist so I hear this all the time and it is this same method that is applied to the authenticity of an object of art.

Also, I am aware of what sort of processes go into analyzing ancient techniques in painting and sculpture as well as textile art as I have more than one graduate degree in art, art history and conservation.


Sorry to tell you but having a Physics degree isn't really a big deal. Sure almost all of the calculations involve calculus at that level, but thats something anyone is capable of picking up if their willing to try. It's obvious to me you have not studied the heavier sciences and the mathematics that goes along with them or you would not see having an ability in mathematics as being a defining trait of intelligence and something to brag about. With Physics you don't even need to understand the content, only which numbers to plug into the appropriate formula. Hardly a sign of intelligence. One thing I have noticed almost all those imbued in the world of mathematics share is the quality of having contempt for anyone and everyone who isn't accomplished at mathematics, something I personally can't stand.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chrismackint
Account Suspended


Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 809

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
No problem, forget it ... And it probably plays also no role what job someone has ("Laymen built the ark, professionals the Titanic." - A German stand up comedian).

I'm only grumpy when someone false statements reflects unaudited. Especially about people I know personally... And I think it's important, especially in our media age, to deal with the real sources. And these are now usually the printed reports of the excavators... No tv shows, even if they are moderated by Egyptologists.

Greetings, Lutz.


Working in retail was just a temporary blip on the radar until I realized the error of my ways and pursued something more substantial. I think your wrong- a person is defined by their job and their job is a reflection on them in many ways. I got upset when I was walked all over by those Aibo idiots and either rightly or wrongly I am taking it out on people here who I rightly or wrongly feel are doing something similar. What I don't think you realize is that by talking down to people you only provide them with the fuel they need to succeed and achieve something better.

I get upset when people claim something is authentic yet provide no evidence that is unable to be manipulated by a skilled forger. To me claiming something is real when found by someone with Borchardts background makes me feel like your deluded. Why the German museum doesn't do the tests on the biological matter found within the crown, the so called hay, and put any doubt out of peoples minds is something I can not understand.

Papers and TV are not irrelevent sources of information. It's not a good look when you have the headline that the bust is a fake splashed across the worlds papers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3576
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chrismackint wrote:
... To me claiming something is real when found by someone with Borchardts background makes me feel like your deluded.
...

What do you mean with "background"? The lies of idiots seeking desperately to substantiate their calumnies? Borchardt was one of the best and most professional archaeologists of his time (and by the way not alone when the bust was found). Like all his colleagues at that time, he has also acquired objects for museums and private individuals, and advise it. They had to pay bill... It was completely normal at that time.

If you now again come with this clay tablet story, and obviously do not believe me this is misrepresented, then read it for yourself, rather than blindly repeat the lies of third:

Adolf Erman : Mein Werden und mein Wirken (1929, page 230).


Chrismackint wrote:
... Why the German museum doesn't do the tests on the biological matter found within the crown, the so called hay, and put any doubt out of peoples minds is something I can not understand. ...

They have tested the stucco. The result is clear, the composition corresponding to the mixture which was used only in Amarna for a limited time (that this very special Amarna - mixture existed, Borchardt could not know).

They have tested the pigment. It is original ancient.

They have tested the bee wax from the eye with C14. It is ancient.

Result: "Borchardt has everything found in Amarna and mixed it together!"

... In front of an audience of countless people, who all have said nothing about this, never to nobody. Have you ever been in Egypt? On an excavation? I think not...

What do you think would they say when the result of C 14 testing of the straw would be: around 1300 B.C. ? ... Besides there would be as first result a scandal about the Germans destroying the bust for testing?
_________________
Ägyptologie - Forum (German)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 3 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group