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neseret
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
neseret wrote:
... I have to teach a section on textiles next week, and couldn't locate the titles of Vogelsang-Eastwood's works on Tutankhamun's clothing which is my section to teach. So, I've now located (and/or downloaded) the books I need for next week, and thank goodness, Oxford's libraries have them (in English and Dutch).

I would particularly like to concentrate on Tutankhamun's so-called "christening gown" which was buried with him. As I haven't yet found Tutankhamun - Textiles and Clothing, yet, I'll pose this question to you both.

Is this "christening gowns" in either publication? ...

I would say no. Discussed are the "Duck-" (JE 62656, CN 50a) & the "Falcon - Tunic" (JE 62625, CN 367 i). But I scan the booklet (only 24 p.) and send it to you.

Do you have the JE or Carter Number of this "christening gown"? Sometimes these objects are also known under different names...


My best guess is Carter No. 021d. It's mall and there's some discussion about it being made for a child, possibly in the dress style of a female. I could see that as a possible "christening gown."

Lutz wrote:
I also have...

Gillian Vogelsang-Eastwood : Die Kleider des Pharaos - Die Verwendung von Stoffen im Alten Ägypten. - Hannover & Amsterdam : Kestner-Museum / Batavian Lion, 1995. - ISBN : 9076073849. - 152 p., figs.

It is the German edition of the original Dutch "De kleren van de farao" (catalogue for a special exhibition, see AEB 1994.0684). The part about Tutankhamun has 10 p., I will scan them also. You get this later in the evening...

Maybe also worth a look : Tutankhamun's wardrobe : Exhibition

Margarita Nicolakaki-Kentrou : Affinities Between the Aegeanizing Mural Motifs from Malkata`s Site K and Contemporary Textile Icononography. - In: Proceedings of the Ninth International Congress of Egyptologists - Volume II. - [Orientalia Lovaniensia Analecta - OLA 150,2]. - Leuven, Paris, Dudley, MA, 2007. - pp. 1381 - 1390.
Keywords : DEKORATION, ÄGÄIS, MALQATA, DYN.18, TEXTILVERZIERUNG, TEXTILIEN, TUTANCHAMUN, TUNIKA, JE_62626


All good material; many thanks, Lutz. Wink

I've also written directly to Vogelsang-Eastwood about the item. We'll see what she has to say as well.

Lutz wrote:
neseret wrote:
... Good luck you two, on the marriage proposal! lol:

We then send invitation hawks in the four cardinal directions and rent the Luxor temple when it is so far. But first I want to see the PDF's from Hathi Trust... Cool .


Not the Abydos temple? That is far more beautiful....and far more atmospheric. happy1
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

neseret, I have read that the object known as the christening gown is actually the shawl that was draped around the figure of Anubis on his shrine. It is inscribed with ink on the border with the cartouche of Ankhenaten and the name of Tutankhamen. I can't recall exactly but it may read "king's son, of his body". I'm afraid I cannot locate the reference for this at the moment because my internet is very spotty right now.

Lutz, of you can get the Luzor temple for any sort of party, I'll get you the books, even if I have to write them myself. (which I know would be a huge disappointment but if I write them in English you may not notice until it's too late) Laughing everyone is invited!
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.. going to working on finding that ref because now I am very curious...
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That can't be right. It has one or the other of their names on it. In other news I don't think it's mentioned in Pharaonic Egyptian clothing.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neseret, I load up the two PDF`s on the server at the moment and will send you the links... The place of the Opet - Fest is better for marriage I think. But feel free to organise a small reception before at Abydos... Very Happy

Ankhetmaatre, can you please send me your e-mail address by PM again? It looks like I lost it...

To rent the Luxor or the Medineth Habu Temple is possible, for real. It is just a matter of money. I have seen once from outside Sad a high society party at Medineth Habu by night, with torch light and all the bells and whistles...

From Germany (Europe?) it is only possible in most cases to see the reference, not the whole books, on Hathi Trust. I'm also not sure if you can always download them in the U.S. or "just" read online? I have at the moment no book specifically in mind, it would just be nice to know if one could use it in an emergency...

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the object with the inscription that I mentioned. Still can't find the attribution of object as "christening gown" so I may well be just out of my head. Interested in what Vogelsang-Eastwood May have to say on the subject.

http://www.griffith.ox.ac.uk/gri/carter/261a.html
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
That can't be right. It has one or the other of their names on it. In other news I don't think it's mentioned in Pharaonic Egyptian clothing.

Rosalind Hall : Egyptian Textiles. - [Shire ES 4]. - Buckinghamshire : Shire Publ. LTD, [1986] 2001. - 72 p., on page 40 :
Quote:
"... The famous jackal shrine was covered by a child`s shirt, shawl and scarf, all now in the Victoria & Albert Museum. The shirt bears the date of the seventh regenal year of Akhenaten, possible the year of Tutankhamuns birth. It would have taken 3000 hours to make, or nine month of eleven-hour-days. ..."

Greetings, Lutz.
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ that's the one! Carter card 261a, Burton photo 1480, I beleive.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also think that this "christening gown" should be the object from the Anubis shrine. Unfortunately without photo...

V & A Museum : "Woven linen, Length: 3.25 in, Width: 3.25 in, Egypt, ca. 1325 BC" (The donor claimed that the fragment formed part of the veil that shrouded the firgures that carried the coffin of Tutankhamun.)

I first thought of the so-called "Baptism of Pharaoh" in the coronation ceremony (gods with jugs, in relief on temple walls often Horus and Thot, pour the king with water that turned into ankh-signs). In these representations, however, the king is wearing only the shendit...

Greetings, Lutz.
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neseret
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
I also think that this "christening gown" should be the object from the Anubis shrine. Unfortunately without photo...

V & A Museum : "Woven linen, Length: 3.25 in, Width: 3.25 in, Egypt, ca. 1325 BC" (The donor claimed that the fragment formed part of the veil that shrouded the firgures that carried the coffin of Tutankhamun.)

I first thought of the so-called "Baptism of Pharaoh" in the coronation ceremony (gods with jugs, in relief on temple walls often Horus and Thot, pour the king with water that turned into ankh-signs). In these representations, however, the king is wearing only the shendit...


I doubt this is the gown, as it would have remained with the Carter hoard and not fallen into private hands. It's far too small (obviously) to be the full gown, if Carter No. 261a, which was 264 X 100 cm, with a 10 cm fringe.

"...The donor claimed that the fragment formed part of the veil that shrouded the figures that carried the coffin of Tutankhamun..."

Hmm. That's a somewhat odd claim, as I know of no "figures", in terms of three-dimensional figure/ines from the tomb, which represented pall-bearers (though some persons are represented on the wall in a relief who are identified generally as "Tutankhamun's pall-bearers").

The V&A notes no inscriptions on the linen, which was noted by Hall (Now Dr. Rosalind Janssen) in her work in Egyptian Textiles. This again argues against the item being the robe I need.

The main reason I want to get (and be sure of) the right item is due to claims made by Hall/Janssen about the man-hours it took to make the so-called "christening gown", which was also considered a family heirloom. Reeves (1990: 169) lumps Carter No. 261a under "heirlooms", mainly because Akhenaten's name was on the inscription, but he doesn't give any better analysis of what the item was. Reeves calls it a "linen covering of Anubis", while Carter's notes clearly identify the object as a 'shirt':

L. 264, W. 100, cms
Fringe 10 cms in length.

A complete shirt made out of a piece of linen with fringe; folded in half; hemmed on both sides, with openings left for arms; at top centre a circular opening for the neck ...

<...>

(Inscription:)...year 9. Reading of cartouche very doubtful. Possibly
Akhenaten.


As Tutankhamun was only 5' 5" in life, there's no way this "shirt" was worn by him, even as an adult, which does seem to argue for this being an elaborate long "christening gown" of some sort.

Reference:

Murray, H. and M. Nuttall. 1963. A Handlist to Howard Carter's Catalogue of Objects in Tutankhamun's Tomb. Tut'ankhamun's Tomb Series I.Oxford: Griffith Institute. (online)

Reeves, N. 1990. The Complete Tutankhamun: The King - The Tomb - The Royal Treasure. London: Thames and Hudson.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:45 pm    Post subject: Slandering Tutankhamun? Reply with quote

"Slandering Tutankhamun?" (Al-Ahram Weekly, Issue No.1219, 30 October, 2014)
Quote:
"The results of a virtual autopsy on the mummy of the boy king Tutankhamun have triggered the anger of Egyptian Egyptologists, writes Nevine El-Aref. ...

... Now a new virtual autopsy carried on the boy king and shown on Sunday in a BBC documentary entitled “Tutankhamun: The Truth Uncovered” has given a new picture of the young king’s life, death and physical appearance. Scientists in the documentary claim that they have recreated the first-ever life-size image of the 18th Dynasty king through 2,000 computerised tomography CT scans.

They have constructed a 3D computer model of what he would have looked like during his life. The result is shocking, with the scientists claiming that the boy king had a clubfoot and feminine hips. The research also claims that Tutankhamun’s parents were probably brother and sister, which resulted in a son riddled with genetic disorders. ...

... Ahmed Said, professor of ancient Egyptian civilisation at the Faculty of Archaeology at Cairo University, said that research carried out from 2005 to 2010 had not mentioned any of the newly claimed results screened in the BBC documentary. He said that brother-sister marriage was not evidence of genetic disorders as it was a trend in the ancient Egyptians royal family and was intended to preserve the purity of royal blood.

“The scientific team is looking for fame as their results are only speculation without any archaeological or historical evidence,” Said told the Weekly.

The large hips claimed for Tutankhamun and his supposedly feminine appearance were unfounded, he said, adding that this was an artistic style used to represent the Nile god Hapy.

According to Hawass, the stylised male/female physique characteristic of representations of Akhenaten was an iconographic convention that bore no relation to the pharaoh’s actual appearance. “According to Amarna religious belief Aten was both male and female and therefore Akhenaten, as his representative, was depicted as having the form of both a man and a woman,” he said."

Greetings, Lutz.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

neseret wrote:
Lutz wrote:
I also think that this "christening gown" should be the object from the Anubis shrine. Unfortunately without photo...

V & A Museum : "Woven linen, Length: 3.25 in, Width: 3.25 in, Egypt, ca. 1325 BC" (The donor claimed that the fragment formed part of the veil that shrouded the firgures that carried the coffin of Tutankhamun.)

I first thought of the so-called "Baptism of Pharaoh" in the coronation ceremony (gods with jugs, in relief on temple walls often Horus and Thot, pour the king with water that turned into ankh-signs). In these representations, however, the king is wearing only the shendit...


I doubt this is the gown, as it would have remained with the Carter hoard and not fallen into private hands. It's far too small (obviously) to be the full gown, if Carter No. 261a, which was 264 X 100 cm, with a 10 cm fringe. ...

I must say I was also very surprised that an object like this is in the V & A in London. I had never before read somewhere. Do you know someone from this museum? I could write Grajetzki / Quirke and ask if they have an idea...?

However, Vogelsang-Eastwood (or Hall ?, or Reeves? lost the overview...) mentioned that the handling of these objects from linen was very poor. Even Carter & Co. were a little careless with these things? The largest part was probably not been examined until today?

neseret wrote:
... "...The donor claimed that the fragment formed part of the veil that shrouded the figures that carried the coffin of Tutankhamun..."

Hmm. That's a somewhat odd claim, as I know of no "figures", in terms of three-dimensional figure/ines from the tomb, which represented pall-bearers...

I think meant are the deities in the so called "Treasury Room", the annex chamber of the burial chamber. In there sealed shrines standing, they were also covered with cloths.

I hope Vogelsang-Eastwood responds and can help, very difficult the whole. Do you have in need another "Fummel" in the hindquarters?

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Slandering Tutankhamun? Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
"Slandering Tutankhamun?" (Al-Ahram Weekly, Issue No.1219, 30 October, 2014)
Quote:
"The results of a virtual autopsy on the mummy of the boy king Tutankhamun have triggered the anger of Egyptian Egyptologists, writes Nevine El-Aref. ...

... Now a new virtual autopsy carried on the boy king and shown on Sunday in a BBC documentary entitled “Tutankhamun: The Truth Uncovered” has given a new picture of the young king’s life, death and physical appearance. Scientists in the documentary claim that they have recreated the first-ever life-size image of the 18th Dynasty king through 2,000 computerised tomography CT scans.

They have constructed a 3D computer model of what he would have looked like during his life. The result is shocking, with the scientists claiming that the boy king had a clubfoot and feminine hips. The research also claims that Tutankhamun’s parents were probably brother and sister, which resulted in a son riddled with genetic disorders. ...

... Ahmed Said, professor of ancient Egyptian civilisation at the Faculty of Archaeology at Cairo University, said that research carried out from 2005 to 2010 had not mentioned any of the newly claimed results screened in the BBC documentary. He said that brother-sister marriage was not evidence of genetic disorders as it was a trend in the ancient Egyptians royal family and was intended to preserve the purity of royal blood.

“The scientific team is looking for fame as their results are only speculation without any archaeological or historical evidence,” Said told the Weekly.

The large hips claimed for Tutankhamun and his supposedly feminine appearance were unfounded, he said, adding that this was an artistic style used to represent the Nile god Hapy.

According to Hawass, the stylised male/female physique characteristic of representations of Akhenaten was an iconographic convention that bore no relation to the pharaoh’s actual appearance. “According to Amarna religious belief Aten was both male and female and therefore Akhenaten, as his representative, was depicted as having the form of both a man and a woman,” he said."

Greetings, Lutz.

I would hadly call it slander. Seems more like educated guesswork, this mummy is so badly damaged that I'm really surprised anyone feels comfortable making any definitve claims about his physical appearance.

In Die Kleider des Pharaos, p97, plate 162, Vogelsang-Eastwood published a picture of three loincloths and described their construction. The garments are actually more Y shaped than triangular, which is important to the whole "how large were Tutankhamen's hips" question. Woven fabrics have threads running vertically known as the warp (or straight grain) and threads running horizontally known as the weft (or cross grain). In a perfect world these threads form a ninety degree angle. At a forty five degree angle to these threads is the bias grain, which has a considerable amount of stretch. The tops of Tutankhamen's loincloths are on the partial bias grain. This means they would have been somewhat stretchy across the top, and would stretch out more over time. It probably also made them very comfortable because this stretchiness would act like elastic waistbands today, meaning that the loincloths would not have to have been tied tightly around the hips to stay in place. It may be that his hips were not really that large after all. Forensics of underwear! Cool
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neseret
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
neseret wrote:
Lutz wrote:
I also think that this "christening gown" should be the object from the Anubis shrine. Unfortunately without photo...

V & A Museum : "Woven linen, Length: 3.25 in, Width: 3.25 in, Egypt, ca. 1325 BC" (The donor claimed that the fragment formed part of the veil that shrouded the firgures that carried the coffin of Tutankhamun.)

I first thought of the so-called "Baptism of Pharaoh" in the coronation ceremony (gods with jugs, in relief on temple walls often Horus and Thot, pour the king with water that turned into ankh-signs). In these representations, however, the king is wearing only the shendit...


I doubt this is the gown, as it would have remained with the Carter hoard and not fallen into private hands. It's far too small (obviously) to be the full gown, if Carter No. 261a, which was 264 X 100 cm, with a 10 cm fringe. ...

I must say I was also very surprised that an object like this is in the V & A in London. I had never before read somewhere. Do you know someone from this museum? I could write Grajetzki / Quirke and ask if they have an idea...?


I ran across something - ah heck, Reeves, Carter, Hall? - that seemed to imply what this may have been was the shroud covering the coffin itself. That would make sense - more so than it being a gown fragment. If you want to inquire, though, it wouldn't hurt.

Dr. Janssen tells me that the shirt covering Anubis (Carter No. 261a) IS the "christening gown" we have been looking for, and that it is still intact. So, thank you, Ankhetmaare and Lutz! We have solved it! pharaohok

Lutz wrote:
neseret wrote:
... "...The donor claimed that the fragment formed part of the veil that shrouded the figures that carried the coffin of Tutankhamun..."

Hmm. That's a somewhat odd claim, as I know of no "figures", in terms of three-dimensional figure/ines from the tomb, which represented pall-bearers...

I think meant are the deities in the so called "Treasury Room", the annex chamber of the burial chamber. In there sealed shrines standing, they were also covered with cloths.


But they don't act as pallbearers, do they? This is confusing. Idea

Lutz wrote:
[I hope Vogelsang-Eastwood responds and can help, very difficult the whole. Do you have in need another "Fummel" in the hindquarters?


OK, you have lost me here. Fummel? scratch
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Dr. Janssen tells me that the shirt covering Anubis (Carter No. 261a) IS the "christening gown" we have been looking for, and that it is still intact. So, thank you, Ankhetmaare and Lutz! We have solved it! pharaohok


High Five! Very Happy
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