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The Kolbrin suggests Akhenaten had offspring with Meritaten
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the bottom of this link is a bibliography containing many books which touch upon the very question you asked. I would start by reading as many of them as you can. This will give you a reasonable grasp of the complexity of pharaoh Akhenaten and era he lived in.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be particularly interested in specific references to this, if possible.

"If in this text actually the alleged incest story between Akhenaten and his daughters also was cobbled together, so this is at most a hint on its creation: Early 20th century? At that time there was in Egyptology a corresponding theory, however, done by the archaeological evidence now."
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaroslav Černý : Consanguineous Marriages in Pharaonic Egypt. - In: Journal of Egyptian Archaeology - JEA 40. - 1954. - pp. 23 - 29.

Russell Middleton : Brother-Sister and Father-Daughter Marriage in Ancient Egypt. - In: American Sociological Review 27. - 1962. - pp. 603 - 611.

Wolfgang Helck : Die Tochterheirat Ägyptischer Könige. - In: Chronique d'Égypte - CdE 44. - 1969. - pp. 22 - 26.

Christine Meyer : Zum Titel Hmt njswt bei den Töchtern Amenophis III und IV und Ramses II. - In: Studien zur Altägyptischen Kultur - SAK 11. - 1984. - pp. 253 - 263.

Paul John Frandsen : Incestuous and Close-Kin Marriage in Ancient Egypt and Persia - An Examination of the Evidence. - Copenhague : CNI Publications, 2009. - [Carsten Niebuhr Institute Publications 34]. - 224 p.

Burt Kasparian : Review of Frandsen, Paul John : Incestuous and Close-kin Marriage in Ancient Egypt and Persia - An Examination of the Evidence, Kopenhagen, 2009. - In: JEA 98. - 2012. - pp. 326 - 328.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Jaroslav Černý : Consanguineous Marriages in Pharaonic Egypt. - In: Journal of Egyptian Archaeology - JEA 40. - 1954. - pp. 23 - 29.

Russell Middleton : Brother-Sister and Father-Daughter Marriage in Ancient Egypt. - In: American Sociological Review 27. - 1962. - pp. 603 - 611.

Wolfgang Helck : Die Tochterheirat Ägyptischer Könige. - In: Chronique d'Égypte - CdE 44. - 1969. - pp. 22 - 26.

Christine Meyer : Zum Titel Hmt njswt bei den Töchtern Amenophis III und IV und Ramses II. - In: Studien zur Altägyptischen Kultur - SAK 11. - 1984. - pp. 253 - 263.

Paul John Frandsen : Incestuous and Close-Kin Marriage in Ancient Egypt and Persia - An Examination of the Evidence. - Copenhague : CNI Publications, 2009. - [Carsten Niebuhr Institute Publications 34]. - 224 p.

Burt Kasparian : Review of Frandsen, Paul John : Incestuous and Close-kin Marriage in Ancient Egypt and Persia - An Examination of the Evidence, Kopenhagen, 2009. - In: JEA 98. - 2012. - pp. 326 - 328.


Your help is much appreciated.

Which one of those books specifically cover the theories that Akhenaten and Meritaten had an incestuous relationship? As you can understand my post was about a particular case, I'm not looking to study the subject in a broad manner.

Thanks in advance.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also I found this which seemed intriguing. Any opinions regarding it from any of you?

"The second part of the book is devoted to Maïa herself. It took years for the discoverer and author of the book to confirm some intuition he got early. It was indeed necessary to remove all the later masonries and blockings, to study the inscriptions, to compare with what we know about the Amarna Period. But at the end, the first intuition seems to be confirmed. Maïa was not just a “wet-nurse” like others. She was a very important lady of the royal court, even if the tomb does not give complete and accurate information about her, due to the difficult period of king Tut’s reign, breaking with the previous yrars of Akhenaten’s reign. But taking the time to study what is shown and written, and what is not said, we can understand something sure. At a certain time Maïa also sat on the throne of Egypt, just before and perhaps during king Tutânkhamun’s coronation. And we know at least one lady who was the coregent or the regent of the kingdom at the end of the reign of Akhenaten: his own elder daughter, the princess Meritaten.

Therefore, for this reason and others, Maïa appears now not as a previously unknown character, but as Meritaten herself. It was indeed impossible to mention explicitely that she was a royal daughter because her father was Akhenaten; but it was also impossible to completely dismiss her because she was the necessary link for the transmission of the royal power; she was the warrant of the legitimacy of Tutankhamen, and she was certainly not only one of the most beautiful Egyptian ladies we know, but also one of the most influential. Moreover we know from some “Amarna Letters” that Meritaten was called (or her name was pronounced) something like Mayati. And in the tomb Bub. I.20 of Saqqara, the spelling of the name Maïa sometimes includes a letter “t”, giving a reading like Maïtia or Maïatia, which could fit with the name of Meritaten (the last “ia” of the names of this period was certainly pronounced “I” or “y”).
Another question comes then to mind and cannot be avoided. As Maïa was very close to king Tut, and as she fed him with her own milk, she could be the mother of king Tut. If she was not, she had in the same time a baby and the biological mother of king Tut died very early. But this a less simple solution. So the question is still partly open, but it is certainly tempting to see also in Maïa/Meritaten/Mayati the mother of the famous king. For the reasons mentioned above, it was impossible to say that explicitely (specially if Akhenaten was the father), but many details of the tomb show the close links of Maïa with Tutânkhamun, her nephew, relative or perhaps even son.

© Alain Zivie (November 2009)"
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the by Zivie postulated equating Maia / Meritaton there is not really evidence, it is a pure hypothesis. On the contrary, much to be said against it. For example, she would have all the titles and their position at court lost / abandoned. That does not fit then for a nurse of a king? Makes no sense and is, as I said, nothing more than an imaginative interpretation by Zivie. But there is still a Thread here in the forum about tomb, book and theorie...
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
For the by Zivie postulated equating Maia / Meritaton there is not really evidence, it is a pure hypothesis. On the contrary, much to be said against it. For example, she would have all the titles and their position at court lost / abandoned. That does not fit then for a nurse of a king? Makes no sense and is, as I said, nothing more than an imaginative interpretation by Zivie. But there is still a Thread here in the forum about tomb, book and theorie...


Well your counter argument doesn't seem that conclusive but thanks for the input nonetheless.

I'm still eagerly waiting for the clarification of which of those books you listed specifically touches the subject of Akhenaten and Meritaten incest theories during early 20th century as it could greatly help me in tracing the Kolbrin's provenance. I thank you in advance for your help.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manu84 wrote:
... Which one of those books specifically cover the theories that Akhenaten and Meritaten had an incestuous relationship? ...

Wolfgang Helck : Die Tochterheirat Ägyptischer Könige. - In: Chronique d'Égypte - CdE 44. - 1969. - pp. 22 - 26.

and

Christine Meyer : Zum Titel Hmt njswt bei den Töchtern Amenophis III und IV und Ramses II. - In: Studien zur Altägyptischen Kultur - SAK 11. - 1984. - pp. 253 - 263.

explain quite clearly why they had not. And specifically Christine Meyer analyzed the supposed evidence, the rudimentary inscriptions on the 2 or 3 blocks from Hermopolis.

And of course contain all the above named works more or less many hints and disclosures to development and publication of the theory...
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manu84 wrote:
Lutz wrote:
For the by Zivie postulated equating Maia / Meritaton there is not really evidence, it is a pure hypothesis. On the contrary, much to be said against it. For example, she would have all the titles and their position at court lost / abandoned. That does not fit then for a nurse of a king? Makes no sense and is, as I said, nothing more than an imaginative interpretation by Zivie. But there is still a Thread here in the forum about tomb, book and theorie...


Well your counter argument doesn't seem that conclusive but thanks for the input nonetheless. ...

Well, then call me please one argument of Zivie that speaks for its adoption and is a counter-argument even worth?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'd be particularly interested in specific references to this, if possible.

"If in this text actually the alleged incest story between Akhenaten and his daughters also was cobbled together, so this is at most a hint on its creation: Early 20th century? At that time there was in Egyptology a corresponding theory, however, done by the archaeological evidence now."


AFAIK there is no direct evidence for Akhenaten having had an incestous relationship with any of his daughters. Some Egyptologists have construed that he did based on certain fragmentary texts and incomplete images and the fact that incest was not unusual in the eighteenth dynasty. In one of the Amarna letters Merytaten is referred to as queen, though I think we do lot know for sure who the King was at that time. Nicholas Reeves, for instance, believes that these texts are prof that he did, others disagree. There are no bodies of children or explicit inscriptions that definitively state that any of the Armana princesses bore children to Akhenaten. It is possible that they bore children to an Amarna King but the name of the father is not found. But I am not an authority on the subject, which is why I recomended the books. Also, the links that Lutz offered are worth checking out, if you don't want to be simply working from hearsay.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Manu84 wrote:
... Which one of those books specifically cover the theories that Akhenaten and Meritaten had an incestuous relationship? ...

Wolfgang Helck : Die Tochterheirat Ägyptischer Könige. - In: Chronique d'Égypte - CdE 44. - 1969. - pp. 22 - 26.

and

Christine Meyer : Zum Titel Hmt njswt bei den Töchtern Amenophis III und IV und Ramses II. - In: Studien zur Altägyptischen Kultur - SAK 11. - 1984. - pp. 253 - 263.

explain quite clearly why they had not. And specifically Christine Meyer analyzed the supposed evidence, the rudimentary inscriptions on the 2 or 3 blocks from Hermopolis.

And of course contain all the above named works more or less many hints and disclosures to development and publication of the theory...


You're being a bit evasive now it appears. You told me that the theory postulated in the Kolbrin was an already debunked theory from early 20th century which would point out to the Kolbrin's fraudulent provenance. I'm asking of you to direct me to that early 20th century theory and you instead direct me to books from the second half of the 20th century which tell why this theory could have NOT been true. I think it should be pretty clear you're not proving the desired piece of information.

Now I think you're not getting my point in starting this thread. I'm looking for clues regarding the Kolbrin's provenance and I'm kindly asking for your help in learning more about the different views regarding this specific subject. So far you seem to be bent on arguing against the theory which is fine, but I ask you to please be coherent if you want to participate in this thread, otherwise your participation amounts to trolling and is frankly offensive.

Thanks a lot for your understanding.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Manu84 wrote:
Lutz wrote:
For the by Zivie postulated equating Maia / Meritaton there is not really evidence, it is a pure hypothesis. On the contrary, much to be said against it. For example, she would have all the titles and their position at court lost / abandoned. That does not fit then for a nurse of a king? Makes no sense and is, as I said, nothing more than an imaginative interpretation by Zivie. But there is still a Thread here in the forum about tomb, book and theorie...


Well your counter argument doesn't seem that conclusive but thanks for the input nonetheless. ...

Well, then call me please one argument of Zivie that speaks for its adoption and is a counter-argument even worth?


I'm not here to argue, I'm here to learn from different perspectives regarding this issue. Your input was duly appreciated although to me it didn't seem wholly conclusive. If you want to argue about these subjects you're talking to the wrong person.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
Quote:
I'd be particularly interested in specific references to this, if possible.

"If in this text actually the alleged incest story between Akhenaten and his daughters also was cobbled together, so this is at most a hint on its creation: Early 20th century? At that time there was in Egyptology a corresponding theory, however, done by the archaeological evidence now."


AFAIK there is no direct evidence for Akhenaten having had an incestous relationship with any of his daughters. Some Egyptologists have construed that he did based on certain fragmentary texts and incomplete images and the fact that incest was not unusual in the eighteenth dynasty. In one of the Amarna letters Merytaten is referred to as queen, though I think we do lot know for sure who the King was at that time. Nicholas Reeves, for instance, believes that these texts are prof that he did, others disagree. There are no bodies of children or explicit inscriptions that definitively state that any of the Armana princesses bore children to Akhenaten. It is possible that they bore children to an Amarna King but the name of the father is not found. But I am not an authority on the subject, which is why I recomended the books. Also, the links that Lutz offered are worth checking out, if you don't want to be simply working from hearsay.


The books Lutz provided I'm sure are very worthwhile for someone who is interested in studying ancient Egyptian history from the Amarna period in a broad manner. I'm particularly interested in a specific topic which is the one to which my thread refers, so I would be greatly thankful if I could be directed to the material that pertains this subject instead of a very broad range of material which would become a futile, time consuming burden for me. This being those theories that specifically refer to the possibility of Akhenaten and Meritaten having an incestuous relationship and those theories which seek to debunk such assertion.

Now regarding Lutz it's a more complex situation because I didn't ask him for material which broadly refers to incest in Ancient Egypt, but I asked of him the sources to which he referred in his post in which he appeared to point out that he knew from where the Kolbrin had drawn the accounts it features. I'm still eagerly waiting for this hopefully narrowed down(meaning I don't have to go through entire books to find it) source because it could greatly help me in my endeavors.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I think you are confusing the whole here with a service agency. We are not at "Wünsch Dir Was" ("Wish yourself something", a German TV Show). As I said earlier : "And of course contain all the above named works more or less many hints and disclosures to development and publication of the theory...". Read you have to by yourself.

And, whether and how I participate in a discussion here certainly not you decide...

Manu84 wrote:
I'm not here to argue, ...

And who is "trolling" then?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manu84 wrote:
... (meaning I don't have to go through entire books to find it) source because it could greatly help me in my endeavors.

I just listed one book. The other sources are articles with 4 to 10 pages ...
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