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The Kolbrin suggests Akhenaten had offspring with Meritaten
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Manu84
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Well, I think you are confusing the whole here with a service agency. We are not at "Wünsch Dir Was" ("Wish yourself something", a German TV Show). As I said earlier : "And of course contain all the above named works more or less many hints and disclosures to development and publication of the theory...". Read you have to by yourself.

And, whether and how I participate in a discussion here certainly not you decide...

Manu84 wrote:
I'm not here to argue, ...

And who is "trolling" then?



"If in this text actually the alleged incest story between Akhenaten and his daughters also was cobbled together, so this is at most a hint on its creation: Early 20th century? At that time there was in Egyptology a corresponding theory, however, done by the archaeological evidence now."

I'm still waiting for you to provide this specific theory. I have asked for it kindly enough times already and so far you've not delivered. Your broad list of books not from early 20th century which do not consist of a corresponding theory but to why such theory couldn't not have been true do not fulfill the criteria.

If you can't back up your word you would effectively be trolling an it would be befitting to report you to an administrator.

I hope this is not the case.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manu84 wrote:
... it would be befitting to report you to an administrator. ...

Do what you can not let...
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Manu84 wrote:
... it would be befitting to report you to an administrator. ...

Do what you can not let...


Apparently you insist in refusing to provide the evidence which you suggested, which leads me to think you're merely talking without any foundation simply for the sake of ad-hominem. I would appreciate that until you can provide your alleged sources with the desired accuracy that you would refrain from participating in this thread or I will see myself forced to report you to an administrator. I've come to this forum in good faith and above all being respectful and you have been hostile and disrespectful since your very first post. I'm not willing to stand such obnoxious and undeserved behavior from your part sir.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
Quote:
I'd be particularly interested in specific references to this, if possible.

"If in this text actually the alleged incest story between Akhenaten and his daughters also was cobbled together, so this is at most a hint on its creation: Early 20th century? At that time there was in Egyptology a corresponding theory, however, done by the archaeological evidence now."


AFAIK there is no direct evidence for Akhenaten having had an incestous relationship with any of his daughters. Some Egyptologists have construed that he did based on certain fragmentary texts and incomplete images and the fact that incest was not unusual in the eighteenth dynasty. In one of the Amarna letters Merytaten is referred to as queen, though I think we do lot know for sure who the King was at that time. Nicholas Reeves, for instance, believes that these texts are prof that he did, others disagree. There are no bodies of children or explicit inscriptions that definitively state that any of the Armana princesses bore children to Akhenaten. It is possible that they bore children to an Amarna King but the name of the father is not found. But I am not an authority on the subject, which is why I recomended the books. Also, the links that Lutz offered are worth checking out, if you don't want to be simply working from hearsay.


Also, would there exist a possibility that due to name/title confusions this idea that Meritaten ruled along Smenkhare during a few years would have been wrong and she would have instead have married Akhenaten?

"In 1978 it was proposed that there were 2 individuals using the same name: a male king Smenkhkare and a female Neferneferuaten.[4] Ten years later, James Allen pointed out the name 'Ankhkheperure' nearly always included an epithet referring to Akhenaten such as 'desired of Wa en Re' when coupled with 'Neferneferuaten'. There were no occasions where the ‘long’ versions of the prenomen occurred alongside the nomen 'Smenkhkare', nor was the ‘short’ version ever found associated with the nomen 'Neferneferuaten'.[5] The issue of a female Neferneferuaten was finally settled for the remaining holdouts when James Allen confirmed Marc Gobolde's findings that objects from Tutankhamun's tomb originally inscribed for Neferneferuaten which had been read using the epithet "...desired of Akhenaten" were originally inscribed as Akhet-en-hyes or "effective for her husband".[6][7] Smenkhkare, as son in law, might be 'desired of Akhenaten', but only a female could fit the new reading."

Maybe this whole obfuscation being caused due to the fact that Akhenaten wanted to erase Nefertiti's name from record and exchange it for his new wife?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manu84 wrote:
Lutz wrote:
Manu84 wrote:
... it would be befitting to report you to an administrator. ...

Do what you can not let...

... I will see myself forced to report you to an administrator. I've come to this forum in good faith and above all being respectful and you have been hostile and disrespectful since your very first post. I'm not willing to stand such obnoxious and undeserved behavior from your part sir.

As I said, do what you can not let. And to the second part : your impression, not mine.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is obvious that it does not work as you imagine it. You can not such a complex and controversial subject treated with a few quotes from various internet pages. You will not get around the literature ... At least if you have serious interest, as you pretended several times now.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
It is obvious that it does not work as you imagine it. You can not such a complex and controversial subject treated with a few quotes from various internet pages. You will not get around the literature ... At least if you have serious interest, as you pretended several times now.


You've already been reported. From now on I will proceed to ignore you, at least until you provide the evidence for the claims you made. It's unfortunate that an otherwise pleasant forum would have to suffer from individuals like you(I've already seen your participation in other threads which is equally toxic).

By the way and just to clarify, I clearly stated at the beginning of this thread that I was looking for help. Any individual who is not interested in giving said help is free to refrain from the thread. No one is forcing anyone to do anything they don't want so your complains that I am using this place as some kind of service are unwarranted.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manu84 wrote:
... By the way and just to clarify, I clearly stated at the beginning of this thread that I was looking for help. ...

And I said at the beginning that the theme "The Kolbrin", in my view, does not fit to the rules about the themes of this forum. It is fringe.

The fact that you participate with this nonsense text in another thread (and the exessive quote of the text in the beginning) shows me personally that there is more behind than what you claim...
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Manu84 wrote:
... By the way and just to clarify, I clearly stated at the beginning of this thread that I was looking for help. ...

And I said at the beginning that the theme "The Kolbrin", in my view, does not fit to the rules about the themes of this forum. It is fringe.

The fact that you participate with this nonsense text in another thread (and the exessive quote of the text in the beginning) shows me personally that there is more behind than what you claim...


It would be against the rules if I came to the forum claiming the Kolbrin as being an authentic source, which I of course didn't. People are welcome to debunk the passages I posted, however debunking doesn't mean providing unfounded claims and then refusing to back them up. I don't even need to look at the rules to know that such behavior is not allowed.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not necessary to "debunk the passages" you posted, because the whole text itself is to reject... And if your statements are true regarding your intention here, he should for sure not pop up also in another thread?

Russell Middleton : Brother-Sister and Father-Daughter Marriage in Ancient Egypt. - In: American Sociological Review 27. - 1962. - pp. 603 - 611, on pages 604 & 605 :
Quote:
"... Three alleged cases of father-daughter marriage which were accepted earlier, however, have now generally been discarded. Brunner concluded from a fragmentary inscription that Amenhotep IV or Akhenaton (1370-1353 B.C.) was married to his daughter Ankes-en-pa-Aton and had a daughter by her who bore the same name as her mother.[9] Most scholars regard his interpretation as highly subjective, for the inscription nowhere says that Ankes-en-pa-Aton was married to her father. ..."

[9] Hellmut Brunner : Eine neue Amarna-Prinzessin. - In: Zeitschrift fur Agyptische Sprache und Altertumskunde - ZÄS 74. - 1938. - pp. 104 - 108.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to overstate the situation but Lutz was correct when he said you can't simply offer up a specific quote that would answer your earlier questions about the nature of Amarna period relationships. For every learned opinion of "yes", there are as many for "no", which is why we are both offering links to articles and books so you can decide for yourself after studying the evidence. The early twentieth century book Lutz refered to is no longer in print and I cannot recall its name, but it IS referenced in the link Lutz offered. As you mentioned not wishing to "waste" your time on broad research, I'm not sure this forum will be useful to you. But if you care to delve into the many threads on this forum you may find some relevant discussions. Most people here enjoy researching these subjects and are very pleased to be offered links to articles they may not have already read. As someone who considers your own time precious, I'm sure you understand that many people may not wish to spend their time looking up quotes inside the articles for someone who does not wish to do the work themselves.

FWIW, I have discovered over many years of research into ancient history that %99.999 of "texts" that claim to be of perviously unknown ancient provenance, miraculously discovered by a fringe group, are frauds. But if you truly wish to discover the truth for yourself it will certainly require a great deal of personal effort on your own part via research. Best of luck and happy reading.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
Not to overstate the situation but Lutz was correct when he said you can't simply offer up a specific quote that would answer your earlier questions about the nature of Amarna period relationships. For every learned opinion of "yes", there are as many for "no", which is why we are both offering links to articles and books so you can decide for yourself after studying the evidence. The early twentieth century book Lutz refered to is no longer in print and I cannot recall its name, but it IS referenced in the link Lutz offered. As you mentioned not wishing to "waste" your time on broad research, I'm not sure this forum will be useful to you. But if you care to delve into the many threads on this forum you may find some relevant discussions. Most people here enjoy researching these subjects and are very pleased to be offered links to articles they may not have already read. As someone who considers your own time precious, I'm sure you understand that many people may not wish to spend their time looking up quotes inside the articles for someone who does not wish to do the work themselves.

FWIW, I have discovered over many years of research into ancient history that %99.999 of "texts" that claim to be of perviously unknown ancient provenance, miraculously discovered by a fringe group, are frauds. But if you truly wish to discover the truth for yourself it will certainly require a great deal of personal effort on your own part via research. Best of luck and happy reading.


I understand your point and thank your time. However I think that if he has referenced what you now say is a book (of which you don't remember the name) at least I should get the name of the book he's referring to and not a bunch of links were supposedly this book is referenced so I can somehow find it. I'm not asking for you guys to do the work for me and quote precise paragraphs or anything, I just would like to have the name of this alleged early 20th century book that has been referenced. If it cannot be provided by the poster that referenced it I find it absurd that I am somehow supposed to begin reading some material trying to find some book I don't even know how is called.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:


I understand your point and thank your time. However I think that if he has referenced what you now say is a book (of which you don't remember the name) at least I should get the name of the book he's referring to and not a bunch of links where supposedly this book is referenced so I can somehow find it. I'm not asking for you guys to do the work for me and quote precise paragraphs or anything, I just would like to have the name of this alleged early 20th century book that has been referenced. If it cannot be provided by the poster that referenced it I find it absurd that I am somehow supposed to begin reading some material trying to find some book I don't even know how is called.


Fixed typo (wish there was an edit button)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also I have been reading the forum and have found that many posters do believe there exists a possibility that the Akhenaten/Meritaten incest theory could have happened. So apparently there is a controversy regarding the matter, not that it should be considered as any validation but it adds more reason to my desire to have a discussion about the subject to learn more about the different views regarding it (instead of getting a smear campaign against the Kolbrin which is pointless and precisely what I asked in the OP to please avoid).
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manu84 wrote:
... my desire to have a discussion about the subject to learn more about the different views regarding it (instead of getting a smear campaign against the Kolbrin which is pointless and precisely what I asked in the OP to please avoid).

If this was really your "desire" from the beginning, why not telling it symply this way, and maybe give a link to the text you are talking about? So that the reader can deside by self if he wants to read this mischief rather than rub this nonsense right under his nose, over SIX (!!!) posts in two different treads just with quotes from this stupid text? Sorry, but with look at that "method" I have my doubts about your "desire", and also not entirely unfounded as I think...

Manu84 wrote:
... I'm not asking for you guys to do the work for me and quote precise paragraphs or anything, I just would like to have the name of this alleged early 20th century book that has been referenced. ...

However, exactly that you have done and begin to threaten if one do not follow. I have given you no link, but notes on articles with 4 to 10 pages each, from that I remember that they have the information you "desire". Where is now the problem if you supposedly do not expect that one reads them for you?

You have the quote from Middleton now, with the reference to Brunner. The articles from Middleton and from Meyer are for sure a good start and should actually answer your question. If you have questions about the Brunner or the Middleton articles after you have read them I am of course happy to discuss or to answer them... If I can. The same of course also applies the other articles I have mentioned.
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