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The Kolbrin suggests Akhenaten had offspring with Meritaten
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Manu84
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Manu84 wrote:
... my desire to have a discussion about the subject to learn more about the different views regarding it (instead of getting a smear campaign against the Kolbrin which is pointless and precisely what I asked in the OP to please avoid).

If this was really your "desire" from the beginning, why not telling it symply this way, and maybe give a link to the text you are talking about? So that the reader can deside by self if he wants to read this mischief rather than rub this nonsense right under his nose, over SIX (!!!) posts in two different treads just with quotes from this stupid text? Sorry, but with look at that "method" I have my doubts about your "desire", and also not entirely unfounded as I think...

Manu84 wrote:
... I'm not asking for you guys to do the work for me and quote precise paragraphs or anything, I just would like to have the name of this alleged early 20th century book that has been referenced. ...

However, exactly that you have done and begin to threaten if one do not follow. I have given you no link, but notes on articles with 4 to 10 pages each, from that I remember that they have the information you "desire". Where is now the problem if you supposedly do not expect that one reads them for you?

You have the quote from Middleton now, with the reference to Brunner. The articles from Middleton and from Meyer are for sure a good start and should actually answer your question. If you have questions about the Brunner or the Middleton articles after you have read them I am of course happy to discuss or to answer them... If I can. The same of course also applies the other articles I have mentioned.


I'd like the name of the early 20th century book, not to play your silly power games. If you are not willing to deliver I have no interest in any further interaction with you sir.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manu84 wrote:
I'd like the name of the early 20th century book, not to play your silly power games. If you are not willing to deliver I have no interest in any further interaction with you sir.

I will certainly "deliver" nothing, as I said, you're confusing something here, that is not a service company. Moreover, I do not know of what book you're talking about. I can not remember a special one, as described by you, at some point mentioned here...
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty sure I was the one who mentioned a book. Lutz commented that the evidence your book was based on was from outdated early twentieth century theories. It might be helpful if you re-read the thread.

I have a recollection of scanning an early book about Akhenaten but it didn't deal with the incest issue, as I think about it. I believe it was written by a woman and it gushed about his being the first monotheist.

Akhenaten, Egypt's False Prophet by Nicholas Reeves discusses the incest issues. Reeves believes it took place. The article Lutz offered you on the Heliopolis blocks show how tenuous that evidence actually is. So if you actually want to learn something instead of demanding other people do your work for you then you will need to do some broader research because that's the way learning works. Or you could just be satisfied with your one source and move on to the next half baked idea. Your choice.
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Manu84
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
Pretty sure I was the one who mentioned a book. Lutz commented that the evidence your book was based on was from outdated early twentieth century theories. It might be helpful if you re-read the thread.

I have a recollection of scanning an early book about Akhenaten but it didn't deal with the incest issue, as I think about it. I believe it was written by a woman and it gushed about his being the first monotheist.

Akhenaten, Egypt's False Prophet by Nicholas Reeves discusses the incest issues. Reeves believes it took place. The article Lutz offered you on the Heliopolis blocks show how tenuous that evidence actually is. So if you actually want to learn something instead of demanding other people do your work for you then you will need to do some broader research because that's the way learning works. Or you could just be satisfied with your one source and move on to the next half baked idea. Your choice.


Yes he mentioned early 20th century theories and he specifically said that he thought that the Kolbrin's material were based on them. When someone open their mouth to make an accusation they should be responsible enough to deliver the piece of evidence they are referring to, not some later articles that refute the theory. As my interest lies in the provenance of the Kolbrin to me it would be really interesting to be able to find which authors provided these early 20th century theories and then find their work to inspect it. I've asked for this piece of information over and over and it has not only been refused to me but I've also been accused of not wanting to do the work? It's a very simple matter here, you make a claim you direct to a valid source for the claim. If you have to beat around the Bush and provide articles which debunk the theory instead of providing the direct sources for the theory I must conclude you are not familiar enough with the theory (at least to be able to quickly provide the necessary names of books or authors) and instead you're familiar only with those who debunked the theory (which shows a bias by the way). Either that or there's an ulterior motive to promote only those authors who are antagonistic to said theory.

There's no way to escape this fact much less with ad hominems or trying to make it seem that I'm too lazy or that I'm expecting a service here. You make a claim you provide the source(providing authors that disprove the source is not satisfactory) . If you can't do this you're an odious troll and should be banned from any self respecting forum.
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Manu84
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
Pretty sure I was the one who mentioned a book. Lutz commented that the evidence your book was based on was from outdated early twentieth century theories. It might be helpful if you re-read the thread.

I have a recollection of scanning an early book about Akhenaten but it didn't deal with the incest issue, as I think about it. I believe it was written by a woman and it gushed about his being the first monotheist.

Akhenaten, Egypt's False Prophet by Nicholas Reeves discusses the incest issues. Reeves believes it took place. The article Lutz offered you on the Heliopolis blocks show how tenuous that evidence actually is. So if you actually want to learn something instead of demanding other people do your work for you then you will need to do some broader research because that's the way learning works. Or you could just be satisfied with your one source and move on to the next half baked idea. Your choice.


By the way, thanks for providing a source. It's a shame it had to be you instead of the person who made the accusations. And also sorry for the double post. No idea what happened there.

** I've removed the double post - admin **

I'm going to go look for Reeves' material now Smile
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Manu84
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh well, this book appears to have been published in 2005. While worthwhile this is no where near the "early 20th century" theories I've been told about. I guess I will have to continue waiting for corroboration of that claim.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The theories you are looking for are referenced IN the book I mentioned, which means you will have to read it. The bibliography at the back of the book will list the names of the older books these theories came from. This is called footnoting and referencing. These are very valuable tools. Always go to the back of whatever non-fiction book you are reading and look at the bibliography, it will give you a list of the references the author of the book used. In fact, if you haven't already, look in the bibliography (it would be in the back) of the book you read called Kolbrin. If there is no bibliography the book is likely a load of crap, if there is that is where the source material and provenance, if there is any, will be located.

At some point in school you will likely need these skills for when you are asked to do a research paper, so this will be a good exercise for you.


As far as this goes;
Quote:
Manu84
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:14 pm Post subject:
Oh well, this book appears to have been published in 2005. While worthwhile this is no where near the "early 20th century" theories I've been told about. I guess I will have to continue waiting for corroboration of that claim.
a tiny bit of research on your own (say, in the book I offered above) will give you all the corroboration you could want. Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
The theories you are looking for are referenced IN the book I mentioned, which means you will have to read it. The bibliography at the back of the book will list the names of the older books these theories came from. This is called footnoting and referencing. These are very valuable tools. Always go to the back of whatever non-fiction book you are reading and look at the bibliography, it will give you a list of the references the author of the book used. In fact, if you haven't already, look in the bibliography (it would be in the back) of the book you read called Kolbrin. If there is no bibliography the book is likely a load of crap, if there is that is where the source material and provenance, if there is any, will be located.

At some point in school you will likely need these skills for when you are asked to do a research paper, so this will be a good exercise for you.


As far as this goes;
Quote:
Manu84
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:14 pm Post subject:
Oh well, this book appears to have been published in 2005. While worthwhile this is no where near the "early 20th century" theories I've been told about. I guess I will have to continue waiting for corroboration of that claim.
a tiny bit of research on your own (say, in the book I offered above) will give you all the corroboration you could want. Laughing


I find it incredible that you cannot point out to one prominent author from the early 20th century which promoted such theories and instead insist in making me buy books from later authors who either were seeking to disprove the theory (the ones Lutz pointed out to) or the one you posted which apparently seems to promote the theory. Is it so hard to ask for ONE books or author from the early 20th century, preferably the earliest one who supported this theory, so I can buy their books directly instead of having to buy other author's books in order to find these other authors in the footnotes?
Is that really much to ask? I don't think so. It appears both you and Lutz are merely trying to find any excuse to be insulting and mocking, which I find totally undeserved and obnoxious. But it's clear both of you think the Kolbrin is crap and that anyone who posts anything regarding it should be quickly defamed and gotten rid of. I get the point fellas, I guess I won't get anything from any of you here so I will continue my research elsewhere.

Good bye and thanks for your time.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about with reading? If not the given sources, then at least the posts in this thread?

Lutz Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:21 pm

Hellmut Brunner : Eine neue Amarna-Prinzessin. - In: Zeitschrift fur Agyptische Sprache und Altertumskunde - ZÄS 74. - 1938. - pp. 104 - 108.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
How about with reading? If not the given sources, then at least the posts in this thread?

Lutz Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:21 pm

Hellmut Brunner : Eine neue Amarna-Prinzessin. - In: Zeitschrift fur Agyptische Sprache und Altertumskunde - ZÄS 74. - 1938. - pp. 104 - 108.



Quote:
"... Three alleged cases of father-daughter marriage which were accepted earlier, however, have now generally been discarded. Brunner concluded from a fragmentary inscription that Amenhotep IV or Akhenaton (1370-1353 B.C.) was married to his daughter Ankes-en-pa-Aton and had a daughter by her who bore the same name as her mother.[9] Most scholars regard his interpretation as highly subjective, for the inscription nowhere says that Ankes-en-pa-Aton was married to her father. ..."

[9] Hellmut Brunner : Eine neue Amarna-Prinzessin. - In: Zeitschrift fur Agyptische Sprache und Altertumskunde - ZÄS 74. - 1938. - pp. 104 - 108."


You said that the Kolbrin passages were most likely based on early 20th century theories. The Kolbrin passage speaks about Akhenaten/Meritaten incest, not Akhenaten/Ankes-en-pa-Aton incest.

I think the problem lies here:

Quote:
"If in this text actually the alleged incest story between Akhenaten and his daughters also was cobbled together, so this is at most a hint on its creation: Early 20th century? At that time there was in Egyptology a corresponding theory, however, done by the archaeological evidence now."


Had you read the text you would have realized that the Kolbrin only tells of incest between Akhenaten and Meritaten, thus I guess your conclusion was flawed due to a lack of understanding of what you were referring to in the first place.

Anyhow I still thank you for your time and sources which I will look into.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although it is true that the Kolbrin text says that when Nefertiti left with her household it was the 15th regnal year of Akhenaten. That's precisely one year after the alleged death of Meketaten due to childbirth. The Kolbrin text says that Nefertiti left in disgust due to some kind of "abomination" Akhenaten had committed. This could be construed as an allegation that Akhenaten impregnated Meketaten. But this is not explicitly said so whatever theory you would need to present to prove the Kolbrin had based itself upon some other work would have to be based on the explicit content of the text which involves Akhenaten/Meritaten incest only.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you read Hellmut Brunner? I have - And that is the text that matters, not the extract from Middleton ... Slowly it is really just getting ridiculous.

The alleged disappearance of Nefertiti (for whatever reason) has now incidentally also done:

Athena Van der Perre : The Year 16 Graffito of Akhenaten in Dayr Abū Ḥinnis - A Contribution to the Study of the Later Years of Nefertiti. - In: Journal of Egyptian History - JEH 7-1. - 2014. - pp. 67 – 108.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Have you read Hellmut Brunner? I have - And that is the text that matters, not the extract from Middleton ... Slowly it is really just getting ridiculous.

The alleged disappearance of Nefertiti (for whatever reason) has now incidentally also done:

Athena Van der Perre : The Year 16 Graffito of Akhenaten in Dayr Abū Ḥinnis - A Contribution to the Study of the Later Years of Nefertiti. - In: Journal of Egyptian History - JEH 7-1. - 2014. - pp. 67 – 108.


So is the Akhenaten/Meritaten incest theory found in the following text "Hellmut Brunner : Eine neue Amarna-Prinzessin. - In: Zeitschrift fur Agyptische Sprache und Altertumskunde - ZÄS 74. - 1938"? Is there an English version of that text available anywhere? All I can seem to find is in German.

Thanks
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fate of the Egyptologists ... Without English, German and French goes nothing.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
The fate of the Egyptologists ... Without English, German and French goes nothing.


I made it clear I wasn't an Egyptologist in my first post, unfortunately by the way I have been treated it would appear I came to this forum bragging about being one. I came asking for help, you have so far demanded of me some kind of scholarly standard I have never pretended to have.

Anyhow I will look at the positive side and say that I've gotten good leads from the discussion, so I can consider myself content. pharaohthumb
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