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The Kolbrin suggests Akhenaten had offspring with Meritaten
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Manu84
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This article was interesting. It suggests that the first DNA testing that was done to the Amarna mummies could have been contaminated and that a second attempt using more reliable DNA testing methods could be on the way.

https://medium.com/matter-archive/tutankhamuns-blood-9fb62a68597b
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad to see you taking an active interest in research. The Internet is a powerful tool. The last part of the article is new info to me so that's very interesting.
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Manu84
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
Glad to see you taking an active interest in research. The Internet is a powerful tool. The last part of the article is new info to me so that's very interesting.


Yes, indeed. Despite the little arguments we had I really appreciate your help. Also this article is very interesting, do you think new tests will happen? I hope these guys over there settle their differences and this whole issue can be finally put to rest (I've been reading other threads here and the controversy is certainly intense).
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I can find out by now, the start / source for this father-daughter-incest-thing was a footnote in

Gaston Maspero : Histoire ancienne des peuples de l'Orient - 3 Vol. (Paris : Hachette, 1895-99)

which referred to the marriage of Ramses II with his daughters. Maspero was probably the first who assumed that these marriages between a king and his daughter actually were completed and not only took place for ritual or status reasons.
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Manu84
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
As far as I can find out by now, the start / source for this father-daughter-incest-thing was a footnote in

Gaston Maspero : Histoire ancienne des peuples de l'Orient - 3 Vol. (Paris : Hachette, 1895-99)

which referred to the marriage of Ramses II with his daughters. Maspero was probably the first who assumed that these marriages between a king and his daughter actually were completed and not only took place for ritual or status reasons.


I understand there were theories about father/daughter incest in ancient Egypt, I just thought you were mentioning an exactly similar theory that the Kolbrin presents, which would have been a good lead to its provenance. I must admit the sources you have presented have been a bit disappointing in that regard but I appreciate them nonetheless.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manu84 wrote:
... I must admit the sources you have presented have been a bit disappointing in that regard but I appreciate them nonetheless.

And I dare to doubt that you really busy yourself with / have read them ... And therefore I personally know what I have to think of your note.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One last note ... If you're interested, as such a request can be addressed and resolved here in this forum, if all parties are working together, I recommend as one of several examples, the latest:

Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Pharaohs and Queens -> Something to watch for (off post Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:15 pm)

Here certainly had also the with-reading fun, and something new had learned at the end everybody...
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Manu84
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Manu84 wrote:
... I must admit the sources you have presented have been a bit disappointing in that regard but I appreciate them nonetheless.

And I dare to doubt that you really busy yourself with / have read them ... And therefore I personally know what I have to think of your note.


Well but you must understand too that I came asking for a specific thing. Take for instance that you give me a bunch of sources and I end up spending money and time to read them all and I finally find that they spoke about incest between Ramses and his daughter instead of Akhenaten and Meritaten. I am sorry but I can't take that risk. That's why I asked you to point me to an specific instance that was the exact thing the Kolbrin said, because in that case I could have shared the information with my colleagues and then we could have pinpointed a possible timeframe for the development of the book or even a leads towards a possible forger? However you keep tellling me to read your sources yet the only things you can quote are off topic. Again, the fact that these incest theories were around back then is interesting but not a conclusive lead to something related to the Kolbrin (which is my actual interest in this whole endeavor). However while looking for leads about the provenance of the Kolbrin I've grown interested in the whole Amarna period so I'm looking forward to check some of the sources you've shared (hopefully the ones I can find in Amazon or the likes for not too much money).
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manu84 wrote:
Lutz wrote:
The fate of the Egyptologists ... Without English, German and French goes nothing.


I made it clear I wasn't an Egyptologist in my first post, unfortunately by the way I have been treated it would appear I came to this forum bragging about being one. I came asking for help, you have so far demanded of me some kind of scholarly standard I have never pretended to have.

Anyhow I will look at the positive side and say that I've gotten good leads from the discussion, so I can consider myself content. pharaohthumb


I'm not Egyptologist either and I constantly put up with German. From what I've read earlier from you, you have read the book of concern many times. This is something that shows you are willing to go far into the subject. It is just a matter of patience to track back to the original source.
For instance, I was discouraged in finding a source about certain obscure Elamite gods and at some point, with persistence, I got a correct french source dating back 1905 that gave me interesting and detailed observations that couldn't be found by a simple google research. It is just persistence.

Of course, I'm no in your shoes to make a lesson. I would help if I could, but I barely know about Akhenaten. I never had much interest in him.

Also, Lutz was here for aeons. From what I see, he was very friendly at the beginning, but I guess he got tired of the cray-cray and lazy people over time. Not targeting you specifically, but particular threads (and related OP) I've read in the past.

Manu84 wrote:


Well but you must understand too that I came asking for a specific thing. Take for instance that you give me a bunch of sources and I end up spending money and time to read them all and I finally find that they spoke about incest between Ramses and his daughter instead of Akhenaten and Meritaten. I am sorry but I can't take that risk. That's why I asked you to point me to an specific instance that was the exact thing the Kolbrin said, because in that case I could have shared the information with my colleagues and then we could have pinpointed a possible timeframe for the development of the book or even a leads towards a possible forger? However you keep tellling me to read your sources yet the only things you can quote are off topic. Again, the fact that these incest theories were around back then is interesting but not a conclusive lead to something related to the Kolbrin (which is my actual interest in this whole endeavor). However while looking for leads about the provenance of the Kolbrin I've grown interested in the whole Amarna period so I'm looking forward to check some of the sources you've shared (hopefully the ones I can find in Amazon or the likes for not too much money).


I recommend you to use your neighbouring Universities to get expensive references books. In term of time, it is consuming, but, depending of where you are, it should okayish if it is about Akhenaten (many books about him). It's not like an obscure character. Perhaps, that is the very reason Lutz is hesitant to give too much time into it.

Speculations though.
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Manu84
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I recommend you to use your neighbouring Universities to get expensive references books. In term of time, it is consuming, but, depending of where you are, it should okayish if it is about Akhenaten (many books about him). It's not like an obscure character. Perhaps, that is the very reason Lutz is hesitant to give too much time into it. !"

I think Lutz reacted impulsively due to his disdain for the Kolbrin based on what he read on the Rationalwiki (I doubt he has read anything else about it so he made quick judgments about it based on whatever he found first). And I understand people here are wary of those promoting fringe theories, however I didn't come to promote the Kolbrin, I made that pretty clear in one of my posts in the first page. However if I make a post asking for opinions and help corroborating or debunking the Kolbrin I expect the people that participate to be willing to help. If someone is skeptical or is just not willing to help then they have an easy choice which is to not participate. However some people just can't avoid posting in the thread to mock the book which I could care less because I'm not the publisher nor do I make any money off it.

Anyway after a few differences I think the thread has taken a positive turn. However I am wary of going into deep and costly research when it appears Lutz was referencing articles which speak of incest in a broad manner and not in a specific manner referring to the case that this thread is about. If there are in fact mentions of this case in his articles and he knows where they are but he is unwilling to point out the exact instances because he wants me to read all the articles first (because this is not a service agency as he mentioned)then I find it a bit cruel on his part. If he wasn't willing to fully help then he shouldn't have participated in the first place and if he knows the exact instances but he doesn't want to share them out of spite then I find it reproachable.

Anyway I'll check out that book by Nicholas Reeves that this other poster recommended, just to start.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manu84 wrote:
"I find it a bit cruel on his part. If he wasn't willing to fully help then he shouldn't have participated in the first place and if he knows the exact instances but he doesn't want to share them out of spite then I find it reproachable.

Anyway I'll check out that book by Nicholas Reeves that this other poster recommended, just to start.


Internet forums can often appear to be unkind, but realize it's no one's job to tell you what to think. People show they care about the subject, as well as show their respect to you and your questions by offering texts and references by which you can inform yourself. If you choose not to take advantage of them it's no one else's fault.

It's always better to take responsibility for your own intellectual curiosity, and respect others responses, whether or not you immediately understand their implications. You actually got some references which are of real value, even if you don't realize it.

I hope you continue with you explorations and don't let the kolbrin be the end all of your desire to explore the ancient world. Archeology and evidence based sciences are very interesting and really the only way to fully understand human development.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
Manu84 wrote:
"I find it a bit cruel on his part. If he wasn't willing to fully help then he shouldn't have participated in the first place and if he knows the exact instances but he doesn't want to share them out of spite then I find it reproachable.

Anyway I'll check out that book by Nicholas Reeves that this other poster recommended, just to start.


Internet forums can often appear to be unkind, but realize it's no one's job to tell you what to think. People show they care about the subject, as well as show their respect to you and your questions by offering texts and references by which you can inform yourself. If you choose not to take advantage of them it's no one else's fault.

It's always better to take responsibility for your own intellectual curiosity, and respect others responses, whether or not you immediately understand their implications. You actually got some references which are of real value, even if you don't realize it.

I hope you continue with you explorations and don't let the kolbrin be the end all of your desire to explore the ancient world. Archeology and evidence based sciences are very interesting and really the only way to fully understand human development.


Who said the Kolbrin was the only interest in the ancient world I had? I said that it was a hobby for me and certain other colleagues to research the Kolbrin's provenance. We're trying to find some conclusive proof about the book's origins, if it's a hoax or if maybe it has some basis. You're basically putting things on my mouth and you are still excusing the behavior that I mentioned before regarding the references. I tell you something, if Lutz was able to quote the Ramses incest bit and nothing about an Akhenaten/Meritaten scenario, I'm very inclined to think it's because there's nothing in those articles he shared that has anything about the latter. He just taught the Kolbrin was speaking in general terms about ancient Egyptian father/daughter incest and he hastily concluded the Kolbrin was a forgery based on those early 20th century theories. WHen I asked for the specifics he couldn't deliver, so it turned into an issue of me being "too lazy to do the work" and me "basing my whole views of ancient history on the Kolbrin", which sorry to say is a mixture of ad-hominem and strawman fallacies, basically a big fallacious argument to cover the fact that there were erred conclusions made by certain posters.

You may try to obfuscate it all you want but I ain't buying any of it.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manu84 wrote:
... I said that it was a hobby for me and certain other colleagues to research the Kolbrin's provenance. We're trying to find some conclusive proof about the book's origins, if it's a hoax or if maybe it has some basis. ...

But this would require first that these so called ancient texts are accessible in there original form. Where, when, and by whom were they published?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Manu84 wrote:
... I said that it was a hobby for me and certain other colleagues to research the Kolbrin's provenance. We're trying to find some conclusive proof about the book's origins, if it's a hoax or if maybe it has some basis. ...

But this would require first that these so called ancient texts are accessible in there original form. Where, when, and by whom were they published?


As I said the original scrolls will probably never be published so the only way to corroborate the book's contents is precisely what I'm doing here, checking if the contents hold any basis contrasting them to other findings. That's the reason I came here, because as I said I'm no expert in Egyptology but maybe those of you more knowledgeable in the subject could check what the texts say and quickly point out inconsistencies (which you have already done) and maybe even pinpoint where could the author have taken those theories from ,or maybe if they were fully forged (and if so who could have been the forger).
So far I've seen that the author was at least partly accurate in that there was incest in Akhenaten's royal family and he seems to point out to some father/daughter incest which angered Neferiti (and could point out to Akhenaten having impregnated Meketaten which is unconfirmed). Now when I started researching these subjects I came accross with many theories out there that postulated Meritaten was the "younger lady" mummy which seemed interesting considering the Kolbrin's account. But then the 2010 DNA tests seemed to contradict this by postulating that the KV35 mummy was Akhenaten's sister. This pretty much totally discredited the whole Kolbrin account, however then I read that the 2010 DNA tests could have been inconclusive due to contamination and that new tests are being planned so that would certainly be interesting to see happening. If the KV35 would end up being proven to be Meritaten one must admit that it would be at least intriguing considering the Kolbrin's accounts. However it may very well be that this never ends up being wholly proven so the whole thing ends up being useless as a lead to proving the Kolbrin authentic or not.

Now I know that for people like you Lutz the fact that no original scrolls exist means the matter shouldn't even be given any thought, but as usual there are people who end up fascinated by some text and spend their spare time trying to find out if it was true or not (consider how many people have tried to find "that mythical island" (I see name is banned here) based on a text that, while we know it was really written in ancient times, we don't know for sure if it was factual or not). The Kolbrin has had that effect in some of us and I think it shouldn't be condemned as it is not a harmful thing if some people try to corroborate bits of it contrasted to mainstream history. It's very telling that people get so angry when someone brings up something that is not scholarly approved. I would understand mainstream Egyptologists must be tired of people talking about aliens and such things but if you read the Kolbrin texts you will see that, not counting some spiritual musings, the text is not particularly far fetched or supernatural. Could it be that it's true that the original ancient texts got lost and only type written copies of it remained which were then compiled into the current version of the Kolbrin? It is within the realm of possibilities. For some of us is entertaining to dwell on it and try to contrast its contents with mainstream discoveries to find if this could have been the case. I think that as long as I don't come here preaching the Kolbrin as the gospel I shouldn't be condemned for merely asking for opinions. If you outright think it's a fake then you're within your right to think that way, and you may very well be right. But for me that opinion is something I've heard many times before and it doesn't help me one bit in my endeavor of discovering more about the origins of the book (whether if it holds some actual basis or if it is a forgery, the goal should be to prove either not to merely conclude it's fake because the original documents are not presented. That's no fun you know Wink ).

I made all of this very clear in this thread and if you simply think the text is nonsense and you have no will to dwell upon it then maybe it would be better you didn't participate in the thread to begin with. If your purpose is only to scold the book then isn't it a childish endeavor to participate in the thread? No one is pushing the Kolbrin as the ultimate truth in here so you shouldn't be so inclined to participate in this thread to put it down. That's more the behavior of someone scared of something, which you shouldn't have any reason to be. If posters would have just limited themselves to dissecting the text and debunking it instead of just participating in the thread to show their antipathy of "fringe" theories then the thread would have been much more educative and harmonious (and you still would have gotten your point across for anyone else reading,making sure the Kolbrin is never taken seriously which is probably your goal, and would have helped me find the info I needed in the process).
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manu84 wrote:
Lutz wrote:
Manu84 wrote:
... I said that it was a hobby for me and certain other colleagues to research the Kolbrin's provenance. We're trying to find some conclusive proof about the book's origins, if it's a hoax or if maybe it has some basis. ...

But this would require first that these so called ancient texts are accessible in there original form. Where, when, and by whom were they published?

As I said the original scrolls will probably never be published ...

And you do not believe that it can only give one single reason for that?
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