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Apep hieroglyph
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Lost Pharaoh
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:33 pm    Post subject: Apep hieroglyph Reply with quote

During my work I stumbled on word for Apep, dangerous snake of the Underworld. As I noticed, the hieroglyph for Apep is a snake with crown of the Lower Egypt. Is there any explanation or significance of that?


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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Apep hieroglyph Reply with quote

Lost Pharaoh wrote:
... As I noticed, the hieroglyph for Apep is a snake with crown of the Lower Egypt. ...

Where have you "noticed" that? Rainer Hannig : Großes Handwörterbuch Ägyptisch-Deutsch (2800-950 v. Chr.) - Die Sprache der Pharaonen. - [Marburger Edition, 4th rev.]. - [Kulturgeschichte der Antiken Welt 64]. - Mainz am Rhein : Philipp von Zabern, 2006. - ISBN : 3805317719; 9783805317719. - XLIV, 1475 p., 20 p. of plates [maps (colour)]

gives the name in section "Götter" :



The four knives in the body of the snake are for the ritual banishment of the evil.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Lost Pharaoh
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found it in Faulkner's dictionary:



And on the Projet Rosette website:



But now, when I look better it could be the knife represented in Faulkner's dictionary,and that the Projet Rosette get it wrong. I can't found reference mentioned in the Faulkner's dictionary - BD 2,16 and BD 29,6 and TR 35,1.
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Medjay Archer
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed, Lutz is right about the fact putting knives on demons is an apotropaic method to weaken them. Even in hieroglyphic representations.

From Robert Ritner, The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magical Practice, p.163 (or p.181 for PDF pagination).
Ritner summarily studies the subject of knives with many references (he gives a lot them).

Here's an excerpt:


I recommend the reading of this book. It is quite good despite cumbersome. I made a big step in the understanding of magical practices and significances of AE religion and culture thanks to this thesis.

Anyways, it is possible it was a knife piercing Apep's head and it was confused to something else such as the Deshret/Red Crown of Lower Egypt.
Just look at your thread about god Xenus to end up it was the commonly known Khonsu of the Theban triad. Even among specialists, errata or misinterpretations aren't impossible. I've seen many while looking in depth for several stelae.

Nonetheless, if there is one case of determinative of Apep with the red crown, I would also like to know the significance. For Seth, that occurred to wear the crown (such as Old Kingdom smA-TAwy representations). He was brother of Osiris, it made sense. For Apep, there, I don't see the sense.
Still, anecdoctically, Sobek was worshipped in the Fayyum region while despised everywhere else in Egypt because the Fayyum region had many crocodiles and people thought there were the "avatars" (i.e. ka) of Sobek. Hence, Sobek became a tutelary god. Perhaps, Apep was a tutelary god somewhere albeit I highly doubt it.
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Lost Pharaoh
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great reference Smile Thank you Medjay Archer!

About the symbol. If you look better, you can see that the original Apep hieroglyph (one that Lutz posted) has a knives stabbed with the blade in direction of snake tail, but on the Faulkner's (if it is a knife and not a crown) it is rotated to the opposite. Probably some variation on the subject.

If I can only found that word in references mentioned in Faulkner's dictionary, I could check is that hieroglyph really exist. Hope someone will have better luck.

Budge, The Book of Dead. 2,16 and 29,6.
and
Lacau, Textes religieux égyptiens, 35,1.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lost Pharaoh wrote:
... If you look better, you can see that the original Apep hieroglyph (one that Lutz posted) has a knives stabbed with the blade in direction of snake tail, but on the Faulkner's (if it is a knife and not a crown) it is rotated to the opposite. ...

In both, Faulkner and Hannig, the blade tip shows clearly towards the body of the snake. It is clearly an error from the "Project Rosette" team and not the Red Crown...

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is my vision how it should like this from Faulkner's book:



I agree that people from Projet Rosette probably made a mistake.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The books from Budge : The Chapters of Coming Forth by Day or, The Theban Recension of the Book of the Dead - The Egyptian Hieroglyphic Text (1910) are online... I , II & III.

Also the "Recueil de travaux relatifs à la philologie et à l'archéologie égyptiennes et assyriennes" and as well on "Archive Org.".

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Lacau, Textes religieux égyptiens, 35,1"

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Following "Thesaurus Linguae Aegyptiae -> Digitalisiertes Zettelarchiv" are for this determinative both writings (with or without knife) assigned countless times, from the FIP to the Roman Period...



Greetings, Lutz.
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Lost Pharaoh
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, as I tought Smile Thank you for clarification Lutz. You are better finder of literature than me, that is obvious. Smile

I like to see the source if I have doubts about some rare hieroglyph. One thing is certain - I should not believe 100% to the Projet Rossete.
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Lost Pharaoh
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I can see here is the knife stabbed in the body, not in head. One more version of the hieroglyph. Smile
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Aset
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TLA:
Arrow document DZA 21.662.880
Arrow document DZA 21.662.950
Arrow document DZA 21.662.970
Arrow document DZA 21.663.130
Arrow document DZA 21.663.220
Arrow document DZA 21.663.280
Arrow document DZA 21.663.420
...and so on... Smile

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Aset, very much Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arrow Nakhtamon (TT 335)

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