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Lost Pharaoh Scribe


Joined: 06 Oct 2009 Posts: 320 Location: Serbia, Belgrade
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Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:33 pm Post subject: Apep hieroglyph |
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During my work I stumbled on word for Apep, dangerous snake of the Underworld. As I noticed, the hieroglyph for Apep is a snake with crown of the Lower Egypt. Is there any explanation or significance of that?
 _________________ "To speak the names of the dead is to make them live again."
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Lutz Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007 Posts: 3824 Location: Berlin, Germany
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Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: Apep hieroglyph |
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Lost Pharaoh wrote: | ... As I noticed, the hieroglyph for Apep is a snake with crown of the Lower Egypt. ... |
Where have you "noticed" that? Rainer Hannig : Großes Handwörterbuch Ägyptisch-Deutsch (2800-950 v. Chr.) - Die Sprache der Pharaonen. - [Marburger Edition, 4th rev.]. - [Kulturgeschichte der Antiken Welt 64]. - Mainz am Rhein : Philipp von Zabern, 2006. - ISBN : 3805317719; 9783805317719. - XLIV, 1475 p., 20 p. of plates [maps (colour)]
gives the name in section "Götter" :
The four knives in the body of the snake are for the ritual banishment of the evil.
Greetings, Lutz. _________________ Ägyptologie - Forum (German) |
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Lost Pharaoh Scribe


Joined: 06 Oct 2009 Posts: 320 Location: Serbia, Belgrade
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Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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I found it in Faulkner's dictionary:
And on the Projet Rosette website:
But now, when I look better it could be the knife represented in Faulkner's dictionary,and that the Projet Rosette get it wrong. I can't found reference mentioned in the Faulkner's dictionary - BD 2,16 and BD 29,6 and TR 35,1. _________________ "To speak the names of the dead is to make them live again."
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Medjay Archer Scribe


Joined: 07 Apr 2014 Posts: 151
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Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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Indeed, Lutz is right about the fact putting knives on demons is an apotropaic method to weaken them. Even in hieroglyphic representations.
From Robert Ritner, The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magical Practice, p.163 (or p.181 for PDF pagination).
Ritner summarily studies the subject of knives with many references (he gives a lot them).
Here's an excerpt:
I recommend the reading of this book. It is quite good despite cumbersome. I made a big step in the understanding of magical practices and significances of AE religion and culture thanks to this thesis.
Anyways, it is possible it was a knife piercing Apep's head and it was confused to something else such as the Deshret/Red Crown of Lower Egypt.
Just look at your thread about god Xenus to end up it was the commonly known Khonsu of the Theban triad. Even among specialists, errata or misinterpretations aren't impossible. I've seen many while looking in depth for several stelae.
Nonetheless, if there is one case of determinative of Apep with the red crown, I would also like to know the significance. For Seth, that occurred to wear the crown (such as Old Kingdom smA-TAwy representations). He was brother of Osiris, it made sense. For Apep, there, I don't see the sense.
Still, anecdoctically, Sobek was worshipped in the Fayyum region while despised everywhere else in Egypt because the Fayyum region had many crocodiles and people thought there were the "avatars" (i.e. ka) of Sobek. Hence, Sobek became a tutelary god. Perhaps, Apep was a tutelary god somewhere albeit I highly doubt it. _________________ Kmt is not a racial term nor a reference to the black silt deposited on the Nile valley, but an expression of "standing on place wherein food is plenty, allowing to stop moving like the neighbouring nomads". -Asar Imhotep |
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Lost Pharaoh Scribe


Joined: 06 Oct 2009 Posts: 320 Location: Serbia, Belgrade
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Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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Great reference Thank you Medjay Archer!
About the symbol. If you look better, you can see that the original Apep hieroglyph (one that Lutz posted) has a knives stabbed with the blade in direction of snake tail, but on the Faulkner's (if it is a knife and not a crown) it is rotated to the opposite. Probably some variation on the subject.
If I can only found that word in references mentioned in Faulkner's dictionary, I could check is that hieroglyph really exist. Hope someone will have better luck.
Budge, The Book of Dead. 2,16 and 29,6.
and
Lacau, Textes religieux égyptiens, 35,1. _________________ "To speak the names of the dead is to make them live again."
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Lutz Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007 Posts: 3824 Location: Berlin, Germany
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Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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Lost Pharaoh wrote: | ... If you look better, you can see that the original Apep hieroglyph (one that Lutz posted) has a knives stabbed with the blade in direction of snake tail, but on the Faulkner's (if it is a knife and not a crown) it is rotated to the opposite. ... |
In both, Faulkner and Hannig, the blade tip shows clearly towards the body of the snake. It is clearly an error from the "Project Rosette" team and not the Red Crown...
Greetings, Lutz. _________________ Ägyptologie - Forum (German) |
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Lost Pharaoh Scribe


Joined: 06 Oct 2009 Posts: 320 Location: Serbia, Belgrade
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Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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Here is my vision how it should like this from Faulkner's book:
I agree that people from Projet Rosette probably made a mistake. _________________ "To speak the names of the dead is to make them live again."
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Lutz Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007 Posts: 3824 Location: Berlin, Germany
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Lutz Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007 Posts: 3824 Location: Berlin, Germany
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Lutz Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007 Posts: 3824 Location: Berlin, Germany
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Lost Pharaoh Scribe


Joined: 06 Oct 2009 Posts: 320 Location: Serbia, Belgrade
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Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, as I tought Thank you for clarification Lutz. You are better finder of literature than me, that is obvious.
I like to see the source if I have doubts about some rare hieroglyph. One thing is certain - I should not believe 100% to the Projet Rossete. _________________ "To speak the names of the dead is to make them live again."
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Lost Pharaoh Scribe


Joined: 06 Oct 2009 Posts: 320 Location: Serbia, Belgrade
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Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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As I can see here is the knife stabbed in the body, not in head. One more version of the hieroglyph.  _________________ "To speak the names of the dead is to make them live again."
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Aset Priest


Joined: 21 Jun 2004 Posts: 752 Location: Austria
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Lost Pharaoh Scribe


Joined: 06 Oct 2009 Posts: 320 Location: Serbia, Belgrade
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Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you Aset, very much  _________________ "To speak the names of the dead is to make them live again."
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Aset Priest


Joined: 21 Jun 2004 Posts: 752 Location: Austria
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