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Pharoahs of the Hebrew captivity
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Unas
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool photo Lutz, I'd never heard of that.

Of course my point in using Hatshepsut's expedition as an example wasn't to say that it didn't happen--it probably did. My point is about how a person chooses to discriminate against different sources. The tree roots are neat, but someone could also argue against them as well. For example, someone could say "there's no way to know if it was actually a tree from the Hatshepsut expedition or something else," etc... So what one person takes as fact, another rejects. Why not evaluate the Bible as a source instead of automatically throwing it out? It really does help to read it as a whole.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unas wrote:
... My point is about how a person chooses to discriminate against different sources. ...

Nobody is "discriminating" the bible (for the rocord, when I say bible I mean allways the Pentateuch, the 5 books Mose). It is a source for many things, good and bad ... But it is clearly not a source in form of a history book.

No single person or event is known from other sources outside the 5 books, as the results of archaeological research from now over 300 years have shown. Even real existing cities could not have been specified in their form and appearance, described in the Bible, at the time specified (Jerusalem, Jericho and the Walls).

Many of the most famous stories, as archaeological evidence shows, are adopted almost word for word (Flood) from mythology / legends of Mesopotamia. Even Moses in the Basket has its origins / his role model there.

The oldest written tradition comes from a tomb in the Hinnomvalley (Jerusalem), from the end of the 7th / begin of the 6th century BC. And also this is just a very short text, the so called "Priest or Arons Blessing", on a silver amulet, found together with other tomb goods, wich are clearly not go in direction Monotheism... The oldest longer texts comes from Qumran. The various stages of formation of the texts could be represented by the Linguistics very well and also disagree the "theological tradition".

Unas wrote:
... The tree roots are neat, but someone could also argue against them as well. For example, someone could say "there's no way to know if it was actually a tree from the Hatshepsut expedition or something else," etc. So what one person takes as fact, another rejects. ...

No, the way you describe it is really not. We have scientific methods like dendrochronology and C14 - dating. And we have sources outside Egypt. But nothing of that helps when it comes to the historicity of the bible...

By the way, is the "faith" really so weak that he absolutely needs historical confirmation?
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Unas
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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
for the rocord, when I say bible I mean allways the Pentateuch, the 5 books Mose)


Okay, I'm glad you explained this. When I say Bible I refer to all of it, Old and New Testaments. From there, you'll find:

"All Scripture is breathed out by God..." 2 Timothy 3:16 (there are others as well but that's a well-known one). [ESV]

So the Bible--for me, I know not for everyone--isn't a soup of unrelated writings, it's the Word of God, and all of it is accurate and true, be it the Pentateuch or any other part.

Quote:
By the way, is the "faith" really so weak that he absolutely needs historical confirmation?


I actually take the inverse position. I'm not using history to aid my faith, I'm using my faith to help understand history. If the inerrant Word of God seems to be conflicting with the findings of fallible man (who is certainly capable of being wrong, as we can all attest), then I question the validity of man's findings, not the validity of the Bible. I'm sharing my views; others, of course, will disagree.

Consider:

"For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made." Romans 1:20 [ESV]

In other words, all one really needs to do is observe the world to recognize the presence of a Creator. We've all had those moments, standing on the edge of the sea, or looking at the stars, or watching an insect, or laughing with a child, where we know that there is a God. A God who not only created, but loved us enough to come into this world and save us from our own bad choices.

Someone mentioned the creation account, I might suggest: http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/scripture

Enough from me...I think we've drifted far off the original topic.

Laughing
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unas wrote:
... "All Scripture is breathed out by God..." 2 Timothy 3:16 (there are others as well but that's a well-known one). [ESV]

So the Bible--for me, I know not for everyone--isn't a soup of unrelated writings, it's the Word of God, and all of it is accurate and true, be it the Pentateuch or any other part. ...

With which to itself then logically every scientific-historical discussion has done...
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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unas wrote:

I actually take the inverse position. I'm not using history to aid my faith, I'm using my faith to help understand history. If the inerrant Word of God seems to be conflicting with the findings of fallible man (who is certainly capable of being wrong, as we can all attest), then I question the validity of man's findings, not the validity of the Bible. I'm sharing my views; others, of course, will disagree.


It reminds me THIS:
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What makes me doubt Exodus is all these slaves supposedly having wealth, as in cattle, gold jewels and such. Ok, maybe a few but not enough to support the legend. Also the number of Jewish people as slaves seems way too high for the total population of the country. Too high a percentage of slaves would make a revolt way to easy, and the rulers of any country would know and never allow this.
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Unas
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What makes me doubt Exodus is all these slaves supposedly having wealth, as in cattle, gold jewels and such. Ok, maybe a few but not enough to support the legend. Also the number of Jewish people as slaves seems way too high for the total population of the country. Too high a percentage of slaves would make a revolt way to easy, and the rulers of any country would know and never allow this.


The Exodus story addresses both of these topics:

8 Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. 9 And he said to his people, “Behold, the people of Israel are too many and too mighty for us. 10 Come, let us deal shrewdly with them, lest they multiply, and, if war breaks out, they join our enemies and fight against us and escape from the land.” [Exodus 1:8-10, ESV]

And:

35 The people of Israel had also done as Moses told them, for they had asked the Egyptians for silver and gold jewelry and for clothing. 36 And the Lord had given the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they let them have what they asked. [Exodus 12:35-36]
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Unas
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
8 Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. 9 And he said to his people, “Behold, the people of Israel are too many and too mighty for us. 10 Come, let us deal shrewdly with them, lest they multiply, and, if war breaks out, they join our enemies and fight against us and escape from the land.” [Exodus 1:8-10, ESV]


A little later,

15 Then the king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, one of whom was named Shiphrah and the other Puah, 16 “When you serve as midwife to the Hebrew women and see them on the birthstool, if it is a son, you shall kill him, but if it is a daughter, she shall live.” 17 But the midwives feared God and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but let the male children live. 18 So the king of Egypt called the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this, and let the male children live?” 19 The midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women, for they are vigorous and give birth before the midwife comes to them.” 20 So God dealt well with the midwives. And the people multiplied and grew very strong. 21 And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families. 22 Then Pharaoh commanded all his people, “Every son that is born to the Hebrews[a] you shall cast into the Nile, but you shall let every daughter live.”
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once again, the 5 books are no history books. As long as you can not prove the opposite on basis of archaeological finds and / or the history of the creation of the text itself there is no need or basis for any discussion in this direction. Personal fundamentalist faith was and will never be enough ... On such a basis one could also a historicity of the Brothers Grimm Fairy Tales justify.
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Once again, the 5 books are no history books.


Of course, this is just your opinion. Smile As I've explained, I think they are, and that is my opinion.

Quote:
As long as you can not prove the opposite on basis of archaeological finds and / or the history of the creation of the text itself there is no need or basis for any discussion in this direction.


Again, your opinion only.

Interestingly, Egyptologist Bob Brier makes a case for the historical value of the Exodus story, based on several points of internal and archaeological evidence. Some of these include:

The mention of the cities Pithom and Ramses
Bricks with straw
Midwives told to watch birthing stones
"Pharaoh's heart was hardened," a Egyptian concept
The name Moses is Egyptian
Israel mention in the Merneptah Stela; a determination hieroglyph there suggest that Israel was a people, not a place, indicating the wandering tribes.

I could name more, but let's stop here. I've shared my thoughts, others have shared theirs, and everyone else will have to make up their own minds. Happily, enjoying the study of this fascinating culture is something we can all agree on! Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2015 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nowadays, Cairo is few hours away by bus from Jerusalem. Of course Jews had an idea how Egypt look like as well as details of Egyptian culture. Besides, there were, for centuries, affluent Jewish settlements in Egypt. Thus these details could be easily added to the Scriptures. Stylistically speaking, the text of the Pentateuch should be fixed around 6th of 5th Century BC, just after Pharaohs from the 26th Dynasty employed foreign manpower in worked in the Delta, exactly in the places described in the Pentateuch. Noteworthing is the case of the biblical Pithom (Per Temu), which was actually built by Nekau II (!). Wouldn't be these more coetaneous events that in fact inspired the context of Exodus narrative? And it would be much more plausible than place the Exodus in Bronze Age scenario, in which Hebrews are depicted in a preposterous situation of escape from Egypt to settle in the Egyptian Empire.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unas wrote:
Lutz wrote:
Once again, the 5 books are no history books.
Of course, this is just your opinion. ...

Apart from the fact that you also here, thanks to Amun, Ra & Ptah, have an obviously wrong impression from reality, it would be dangerous for our democracy. Because, as history but also the presence (IS-State) shows, it comes never something good out of that, when fundamentalists constitute the majority and are in power...

Unas wrote:
Lutz wrote:
... As long as you can not prove the opposite on basis of archaeological finds and / or the history of the creation of the text itself there is no need or basis for any discussion in this direction.
... Again, your opinion only. ...

See above: "... also here ... you are wrong ...".

Unas wrote:
Interestingly, Egyptologist Bob Brier...

Brier is no Egyptologist. He made his Doctor of Philosophy in 1970 ("The Problem of Backward Causation"), and later he specialized in the field of anthropology on mummies, and ultimately even to the field of self-expression and storytelling ("The Murder of Tutankhamun").

Unas wrote:
... The mention of the cities Pithom and Ramses ...

The opposite should be surprising ... Because as is well known and archaeologically occupied (Tombs of the Kings of the First Dynasties at Abydos, cedar wood and wine from what is now Lebanon, lapis lazuli from Afghanistan), there was very early intensive trade relations in the Middle East. These work, generally known, better with some geographical knowledge...

Unas wrote:
... Bricks with straw ...

The production of mud bricks with straw was daily life everywhere in Egypt for thousands of years until today, and was certainly not one of the specially guarded state secrets.

Unas wrote:
... "Pharaoh's heart was hardened," a Egyptian concept ...

Not a "concept", only an image that probably exists in every culture. In German the word for it is "hartherzig".

Unas wrote:
... The name Moses is Egyptian ...

The word was part of Egyptian names (usually in combination with a name of a deity), not a name (see Ranke, Die Ägyptischen Personennamen I - III, 1935 / 1949 / 1977) ... Which will have quite got around over the several centuries of Egyptian rule over the Middle East and therefore there present Egyptians with names like "Thotmes", "Amenmes", "Ptahmes", and so on...

Unas wrote:
... Israel mention in the Merneptah Stela; a determination hieroglyph there suggest that Israel was a people, not a place, indicating the wandering tribes. ...

Neither Ramses II nor his son Merenptah are at the bottom of the Red Sea. Their mummified bodies are in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo. Ramses died in his ninetys, his son well into his sixties. No corpse shows even vaguely hints on a violent or accidental death.

By the way, why is your god not mention this episode in his Old Testament? Was it to embarrassing to him that Pharaoh has finally his "chosen people" made flat in the end? Is that the reason that he then obviously violating here his own "Thou shalt not bear false witness" commandment?
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Unas
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In German the word for it is "hartherzig".


Do you friends call you that often, Lutz? Laughing Ha ha, don't take offense, I'm just joking, and trying to lighten things up.

I think what we're dealing with here is a deep topic, complicated further by a fairly significant cultural and language gap (some of your sentences come through a bit mis-worded.) I could continue to attempt to give helpful explanations to your somewhat harsh statements, but we've probably reached the end of useful discussion, so I won't.

No "hard" feelings, agreed? Smile
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said, I think that after your "creeds" a real debate here in the sense and context of this forum is not possible. But some of the misstatements I could not leave uncommented...

I learned English at school, by a non-native speaker. When writing the posts here I rely heavily on Google Translator... But we can also gladly correspond in German.
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's great to have something to believe, I'm not against ANY faith but, extreme positions may distort the way you see and analise things. I know for a fact that even IF the Exodus happened, Ramesses II was not the king who witnessed it. That's something I've learned in my Master's Degree, both from my Egyptology teacher and my Biblical World teacher. Of course this is a very sensible subject and faith does get in the way. I'm not going to argue each one's beliefs but you cannot use them as a scientific truth. I am very open minded and I feel pretty sure about my opinions to openly say I do not believe in the god of Abrahamic religions. The Bible does have a lot of good moral values and in my opinion it is a good book because of that. But we all must be mature enough to accept that the Bible does borrow a lot from Pagan religions, specially egyptian and mesopothamic religions. That's how things tend to grow. The Greek and the Roman world also borrowed some things from these 2 cultures and I think of it as a very positive thing, it perpetuates knowledge.

Going back to the topic, I already understood that it's not worth to continue discussing the subject because religious beliefs are getting in the way. I'm going by historical science and as long as it's not proven, I'm not believing it. As long as everybody around here gets along without fighting, I'm good Smile
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