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Unas Scribe

Joined: 13 Oct 2010 Posts: 245 Location: Wisconsin, USA
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | I'm not against ANY faith but, extreme positions may distort the way you see and analise things. |
Interestingly, both you and Lutz use the word extreme. Where I'm from, however, most everybody takes the view that the Bible is perfectly true; it's not an extreme position at all in my area. I realize that this is not the case everywhere. Where are you from, Chepses?
Quote: | I know for a fact that even IF the Exodus happened, Ramesses II was not the king who witnessed it. |
I agree completely with you. Whoever it was, it's not someone whose mummy exists!
Quote: | As long as everybody around here gets along without fighting, I'm good Smile |
Sounds good!  |
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Chepses Citizen

Joined: 15 Oct 2014 Posts: 36
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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When I refer to extremism I mean to say when people are not that flexible when it comes to religion. That is, to accept that some things in one's religion may not be that right. Well, I have a very different view on religion so maybe that's the reason I think like that. I am like the ancient egyptians, completely open minded and religiously tolerant. As long as no one offends me, I will not offend anyone (although I know some people might be offended by the way I see religion but that's not a direct insult to someone, I guess). If you believe in the Bible, good for you. As I said, it's good and normal to have beliefs. I have my own But you must expect divergent opinions. Not everyone have the same beliefs you have and one must respect the other. You just can't wait for everyone to believe the Bible or God. Or else you will face many other arguments :p
I'm from Portugal  |
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Robson Vizier


Joined: 08 Jun 2006 Posts: 1009 Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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And besides, regarding to Christianism, both Saint Augustine and Thomas of Aquinas, already established that religious authority field is faith and moral. For the knowledge of mundane/material issues God gave us intellect and capacity to know and transform the world. It, of course, changed with anti-intellectualist 20th Century US born Evangelical tradition. |
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Unas Scribe

Joined: 13 Oct 2010 Posts: 245 Location: Wisconsin, USA
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | But some of the misstatements I could not leave uncommented... |
Why?
Quote: | I'm going by historical science and as long as it's not proven, I'm not believing it. |
But don't you find that even when taking a strictly materialistic worldview, you still find yourself having to rely on personal beliefs--"faith" for lack of a better word? I'm curious what you do when faced with a matter such as...the origin of life, for example. On this topic there are accepted scientific theories, but definitely no "proven" answer. In your worldview, I imagine, the logical answer would be, "Science is working on how life evolved from non-living material. Just because we don't understand the specifics doesn't mean it didn't happen." But isn't this "faith"? Isn't this believing in something that isn't proven?
I'm not challenging your right to your opinion, I'm just curious about how you work through issues like those.
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Chepses Citizen

Joined: 15 Oct 2014 Posts: 36
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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But I'm not saying I believe it or not because «God» said so. The origin of life is in fact a mystery but not a total mystery. It's about simple cells that started to organize together, living in something like a symbyosis. It started to get more and more complex and eventually autotrophic living beings originated. Of course, it is easier to say: "The origin of life is God. God gave life". I'll respect if you think that way but I'm not buying it. And when science doesn't know, it gives us probabilities, like "this probably happened this way" or "it may have happened this way". Scientific certainty is only attained when you can prove it
I deal with everything in a very special way. I take a scientific approach on everything. But, I do recognize that the Universe has a lot of things that science cannot explain. Does that mean that God exists? Not for me, it means, as said, that science cannot explain it, yet. I'll give you a very simple example. Some years ago, an epileptic seizure was perceived as a demonic posession. When medicine evolved, scientists found out that it was a neurological disease. My point is to say that it is easier to "blame" God when you don't know/can't explain something. But eventually, there will be an explanation. That's how I perceive things  |
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Lutz Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007 Posts: 4202 Location: Berlin, Germany
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Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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Unas wrote: | Lutz wrote: | But some of the misstatements I could not leave uncommented... |
Why? ... |
Because, so far as I know, this forum has not prescribed the dissemination of half- and untruths. _________________ Ägyptologie Forum (German) |
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Unas Scribe

Joined: 13 Oct 2010 Posts: 245 Location: Wisconsin, USA
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Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 2:22 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | But eventually, there will be an explanation. That's how I perceive things Smile |
Thanks for your explanation, it was interesting. And thanks for your kind replies.
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Unas Scribe

Joined: 13 Oct 2010 Posts: 245 Location: Wisconsin, USA
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Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 2:29 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | Because, so far as I know, this forum has not prescribed the dissemination of half- and untruths. |
I asked a few questions, quoted a few quotes, and shared my feelings/opinions, which you are of course free to ignore. I don't see this as spreading falsehoods. Maybe you do. That would your opinion, and that's okay, too. |
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Chepses Citizen

Joined: 15 Oct 2014 Posts: 36
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Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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Unas wrote: | Quote: | But eventually, there will be an explanation. That's how I perceive things Smile |
Thanks for your explanation, it was interesting. And thanks for your kind replies.
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I know that maybe my way of seeing and analise things is a bit... different. I just absorbed so many things in my life, learned a lot of things and started to build my own mental representation of the world and of our place in the whole Universe. Some people call it God, some call it Allah and some may call it Yahveh, Buda, Tao, whatever. I call it Universe, and we are a part of it, although I believe we are a very small, almost insignificant part of it. The Universe has many things we don't know, but I think that some secrets will always remain like that. That's my belief. the Universe and the energies that surround it and us I know this has been a huge off-topic but I think it's healthy when we get into academic discussions, respecting everyone, without insulting or offending people. Just sharing thoughts and ideas and always have in mind that every single one of us sees the world in a different way. We just need to know that there is room for everyone  |
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Lutz Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007 Posts: 4202 Location: Berlin, Germany
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Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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Unas wrote: | Quote: | Because, so far as I know, this forum has not prescribed the dissemination of half- and untruths. |
I asked a few questions, quoted a few quotes, and shared my feelings/opinions, ... |
And I did not write anything for / about / against your semi- or falsehoods specifically ... I have very consciously formulated in general, based on your quotes (TV Show Brier). _________________ Ägyptologie Forum (German) |
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Unas Scribe

Joined: 13 Oct 2010 Posts: 245 Location: Wisconsin, USA
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Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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This reminds me, I saw him hosting a program a couple of years ago about the internal ramp theory for the building of the pyramids...does anyone know whatever happened with that? I don't hear about it anymore...did that idea just fail to gain support? |
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Chepses Citizen

Joined: 15 Oct 2014 Posts: 36
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Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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As far as I'm aware, the ramp system for the pyramids building is still the most accepted  |
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Naunacht Priest

Joined: 06 Oct 2009 Posts: 515 Location: U.S. NJ
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Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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The bottom line is that if you believe that the Bible is literally true, if you are a fundamentalist, then nothing anyone can say will change your mind. If you believe that the Bible is a mix of myth, philosophy, historical traditions and metaphor--the approach taken by Catholics, many mainstream Protestants and reformed Jews and don't insist that every word it historical fact then it becomes much more easy to see that the Exodus story comes from a whole bunch of sources, some mythological, some from traditional history, some which may have happened to the ancestors of the people who eventually became the Jews and some which happened to other people in the region all of it blended into a hell of a good story over many generation which eventually proved inspirational for the foundation of a nation and a religion. I don't know if Moses ever actually existed--but he's a seminal figure in history nonetheless. |
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Unas Scribe

Joined: 13 Oct 2010 Posts: 245 Location: Wisconsin, USA
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Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | And besides, regarding to Christianism, both Saint Augustine and Thomas of Aquinas, already established that religious authority field is faith and moral. For the knowledge of mundane/material issues God gave us intellect and capacity to know and transform the world. |
This reminds me of a favorite quote of mine; I won't get into the details, but the just of it is that two people are having a disagreement/argument, until one of them tries to use a Christian perspective to drive home her argument. Her opponent tells her, "Don't go dragging God into this!"
My point is, I don't see how one can compartmentalize God that way. People may try, but He is omnipotent and should be a part of even everyday issues. |
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Unas Scribe

Joined: 13 Oct 2010 Posts: 245 Location: Wisconsin, USA
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Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | The bottom line is that if you believe that the Bible is literally true, if you are a fundamentalist, then nothing anyone can say will change your mind. |
Care to expound on this at all? What do you think?
Quote: | If you believe that the Bible is a mix of myth, philosophy, historical traditions and metaphor--the approach taken by Catholics, many mainstream Protestants and reformed Jews and don't insist that every word it historical fact then it becomes much more easy to see that the Exodus story comes from a whole bunch of sources, some mythological, some from traditional history, some which may have happened to the ancestors of the people who eventually became the Jews and some which happened to other people in the region all of it blended into a hell of a good story over many generation which eventually proved inspirational for the foundation of a nation and a religion. |
Positions that "compromise" like this, in my view, can lead to problems...suffice to say it's not unlike the quote I mentioned about "Don't go dragging God into this." In some cases it can lead to "picking and choosing," with a person gladly accepting the Bible's "love" message, while choosing to glaze over other parts. Of course people will always have different interpretations, I certainly understand that.
Quote: | I don't know if Moses ever actually existed--but he's a seminal figure in history nonetheless. |
One quick thought, many Christians naturally believe in the literal life of Jesus. Then in Mark 9:4 you have Jesus conducting a conversation with Moses...if you take the position that Jesus is real, it seems to follow that Moses is real, too.
What are your own thoughts/positions, Naunacht? |
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