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Pharoahs of the Hebrew captivity
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kingsmurf
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:14 pm    Post subject: Pharoahs of the Hebrew captivity Reply with quote

I am confused by one of my studies concerning the Hebrew captivity, at its inception and their release 200 to 400 years later.
Mt question is about whom was Pharoah at their captivity and the Pharoah at their release. I see the relative dates sponsored by the Archeological community for the start and finsih . . .and the confusion comes in when they say Ramses the 2nd was the captor and his second son the Pharoah of the Exodus. This cant work unless his son lived for centuries....SO..go we know whom were the Pharoahs at the Captivity and at the Exodus ?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer this question, one should perhaps first prove that there ever was such a thing like "captive" or "exodus" in / from Egypt?
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evarelap
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
To answer this question, one should perhaps first prove that there ever was such a thing like "captive" or "exodus" in / from Egypt?


I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. There are no records in Ancient Egypt that an exodus or captivity of jews ever happened. And Ramses 2 and Merenptah where pharaohs that pretty much recorded everything, even if to turn the story in their favour.
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Unas
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There are no records in Ancient Egypt that an exodus or captivity of jews ever happened. And Ramses 2 and Merenptah where pharaohs that pretty much recorded everything, even if to turn the story in their favour.


What's wrong with using the Bible as a source? Lutz and evarelap seem to suggest that an ancient written record from Egypt would be "proof," while at the same time, the ancient written record of the Bible is "not proof."
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Chepses
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unas wrote:
Quote:
There are no records in Ancient Egypt that an exodus or captivity of jews ever happened. And Ramses 2 and Merenptah where pharaohs that pretty much recorded everything, even if to turn the story in their favour.


What's wrong with using the Bible as a source? Lutz and evarelap seem to suggest that an ancient written record from Egypt would be "proof," while at the same time, the ancient written record of the Bible is "not proof."


Maybe the fact that the Bible cannot be used as historical source. I'm having a seminar about biblical world and my teacher told us that some books in the bible are merely fiction and the jews back then knew it. Let's not confuse facts with theology. And since you mentioned ancient written records from Egypt, they were all under some scrutiny from scholars, one thing we learn in History is that all documents lie at some extent and so everything must be under a magnifying glass to determine what really happened and what did not. There are no ancient egyptian records about an exodus and that clearly points out to the simple truth: it did not happened. Why is that enough? I'm sure that if it happened, the pharaoh back then would have something written about it, even if, as it was said here, to turn history in his favor.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chepses wrote:
... There are no ancient egyptian records about an exodus and that clearly points out to the simple truth: it did not happened. ...

And there are also no records outside Egypt, and more important, no archaeological finds to confirm. Just one example : Thousands of people with there family and there livestock wandering around on the Sinai for 40 years and they left absolutely no traces?! More than strange... The absurd idea to escape from my enemy in its direct sphere of influence not to mention.
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Unas
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Maybe the fact that the Bible cannot be used as historical source. I'm having a seminar about biblical world and my teacher told us that some books in the bible are merely fiction and the jews back then knew it


I would think your teacher is in the minority with that opinion.
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Unas
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Maybe the fact that the Bible cannot be used as historical source. I'm having a seminar about biblical world and my teacher told us that some books in the bible are merely fiction and the jews back then knew it


I would think your teacher is in the minority with that opinion.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unas wrote:
Quote:
Maybe the fact that the Bible cannot be used as historical source. I'm having a seminar about biblical world and my teacher told us that some books in the bible are merely fiction and the jews back then knew it


I would think your teacher is in the minority with that opinion.

Maybe in Wisconsin... Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
... There are no ancient egyptian records about an exodus and that clearly points out to the simple truth: it did not happened. ...

And there are also no records outside Egypt, and more important, no archaeological finds to confirm.


Let's look at it this way. You're saying that the Bible can't be used to confirm the exodus story because it is the only source. However, there are other incidents in Egyptian history that only have one source but that we hold as accurate (or at least partially true). One that comes to mind is Hatchepsut's mission to Punt. There aren't any records of that excursion in Punt (wherever that may have been), and no records that I'm aware of outside of Deir el-Bahri. Yet this story is generally accepted to be factual, despite only having one source. Can we not do the same for the exodus story?
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evarelap
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well.. the Punt expedition record from Ancient Egypt sounds plausible..and didnt have a dude splitting the sea in half...
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Chepses
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, are we also supposed to believe that evolution did not happen and we were created by a superior being, who made us out of clay? And that a superior being created the whole universe and all life in six days? After all, that's what the bible says and since it is an historical document, then it says the truth Rolling Eyes
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

evarelap wrote:
Well.. the Punt expedition record from Ancient Egypt sounds plausible..and didnt have a dude splitting the sea in half...

And it is confirmed by older records from earlier kings. Hatshepsut was not the first or the last who did it. If Iremember right, there is also a Greek source (?)...

Fairy tales and legends (taken from different cultural backgrounds in no small numbers) of a book that explicitly represents a profession of faith, and for it before 600 BC. no written evidence is, to compare with real events which are supported by illustrations, reports and findings from different eras, is just ridiculous.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, we have concrete archaeological evidence of Hatshepsut's expedition: the remains of the roots of the incense trees from Punt that were planted in front of her temple in Der el Bahari.
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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