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Pharoahs of the Hebrew captivity
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unas wrote:
... One quick thought, many Christians naturally believe in the literal life of Jesus. Then in Mark 9:4 you have Jesus conducting a conversation with Moses...if you take the position that Jesus is real, it seems to follow that Moses is real, too. ...

Mark 9:4 wrote:
"... and he was transfigured before them. 3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. ..."

Although Jesus was a historical person here no real encounter, but clearly a vision is described. And whether one that now regards as real or not is probably again a matter of faith... And for sure no evidence of a real existing person "Moses".
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Unas
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2015 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
but clearly a vision is described.


Indeed. Smile But there isn't reason to think that the Moses described here isn't intended to be the same Moses as from the Old Testament--a real person.

Elsewhere in the New Testament, Moses is talked about in a more historical sense:

By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king's edict. By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them.
By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned.

(Hebrews 11:23-29 ESV)

Quote:
Although Jesus was a historical person


What is your opinion and thoughts about this, Lutz?
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evarelap
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This discussion is the only thing new about this forum nowadays.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unas wrote:
Quote:
but clearly a vision is described.

Indeed. Smile But there isn't reason to think that the Moses described here isn't intended to be the same Moses as from the Old Testament--a real person. ...

Trying to "prove" the existence of real historical characters of the Old Testament with quotes from the New is absolute nonsense and laughable. Using this method, you could then also the real existence of the bottled spirit from the 1000 and 1 Night Fairy Tales of Scherezade prove...

Unas wrote:
Quote:
Although Jesus was a historical person

What is your opinion and thoughts about this, Lutz?

As I said, I am interested in Ancient Egypt and in the Pentateuch only in his relationship to Egypt. I have a fundamental problem with any form of organized religion, its claim to sole representation and its self-proclaimed prophets. I am an atheist, and happy to live in a country where religion can not determine the policies and laws.

And, by the way, this forum deals with Egypt. It is not a Christian Discussion Board...
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unas wrote:
Lutz wrote:
... but clearly a vision is described.

... But there isn't reason to think that the Moses described here isn't intended to be the same Moses as from the Old Testament--a real person. ...

And there is no reason to think that a person acting in a vision is / was real, only because this person is also mentioned in another part of the same book only, and not known from outside this source...
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Robson
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:

And, by the way, this forum deals with Egypt. It is not a Christian Discussion Board...


Christianity has nothing to do with it. Back in the 5th century Saint Augustine, postulated that there is a City of God and a City of Men. The City of God is ruled by revealed knowledge, the City of Men by God given intellect. Although the City of God is hierarchically superior to the City of Men, they have separated realms and interests. and God Himself made the City of Men as instrument of the Humankind well-being with the power of rule itself through its wise men and lay authorities, and even religious authorities must cope with it for the sake of their souls.

Thus, in the very origin of Christianity was established a separation of capacity, in which mundane savvy is as Godly as the Scriptures (albeit potentially subjected by Devil's tricks).

However, in the beginning of the 20th century, an US born racist paedophile founded an anti-intellectualist movement known as Evangelism, self anointed as "THE true Christianism" which defends that there is no other authority than the Scriptures themselves, specially the Old Testament, which is much more colorful and full of justifications for the increible prejudices and hate embraced by the founders, and now by the followers of this particular branch, instead of the Gospel of Love.
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Unas
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

???

Never heard of your comments, Robson.

Quote:
And, by the way, this forum deals with Egypt. It is not a Christian Discussion Board...


Yes, it should have been in the off-topic section, but oh well. This is where it developed.

Certainly not trying to bother or upset anyone.


Quote:
I am an atheist, and happy...


I'm glad you're happy, Lutz, that is a good thing.
I hope my comments haven't been too annoying, and perhaps even interesting!
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Unas
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
you could then also the real existence of the bottled spirit from the 1000 and 1 Night Fairy Tales of Scherezade prove...


You mean he's not real?!?!?!?!?!?! Wink Laughing Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

None or the Holy Books of the major religions were written by the people that lived during the Times of the events. They were written decades if not centuries AFTER THE FACTS. This caused improper tranations, as well as other people's interpretations, prejudices, And politics to be recorded as quoted facts. These writings are not a valid scientific source of I formation. Let's be honest, once politics enters the equation truth a do facts run for the hills and disappear. Did Exodus happened as recorded? I was not there so I can not prove nor disprove it. IMHO not enough proof exists to confirm it happened, and way to many thimgs are mentioned that go against proven facts. If some choose to believe in Exodus as fact, I can live with that. Can we talk about both sides and hopefully all learn something? I hope so. Let new discoveries lead to better UNDERSTANDING. That my friends is what it's all about.
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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unas wrote:
Quote:
The bottom line is that if you believe that the Bible is literally true, if you are a fundamentalist, then nothing anyone can say will change your mind.


Care to expound on this at all? What do you think?

Quote:
If you believe that the Bible is a mix of myth, philosophy, historical traditions and metaphor--the approach taken by Catholics, many mainstream Protestants and reformed Jews and don't insist that every word it historical fact then it becomes much more easy to see that the Exodus story comes from a whole bunch of sources, some mythological, some from traditional history, some which may have happened to the ancestors of the people who eventually became the Jews and some which happened to other people in the region all of it blended into a hell of a good story over many generation which eventually proved inspirational for the foundation of a nation and a religion.


Positions that "compromise" like this, in my view, can lead to problems...suffice to say it's not unlike the quote I mentioned about "Don't go dragging God into this." In some cases it can lead to "picking and choosing," with a person gladly accepting the Bible's "love" message, while choosing to glaze over other parts. Of course people will always have different interpretations, I certainly understand that.

Quote:
I don't know if Moses ever actually existed--but he's a seminal figure in history nonetheless.


One quick thought, many Christians naturally believe in the literal life of Jesus. Then in Mark 9:4 you have Jesus conducting a conversation with Moses...if you take the position that Jesus is real, it seems to follow that Moses is real, too.

What are your own thoughts/positions, Naunacht?


I am not a fundamentalist. I do not believe that the Bible is literally true. This would put me into company of many Christians including Pope Francis who recently asserted his belief in evolution, saying "God is not a magician." As far as Moses goes I don't discount the possibility that there may have been an ancient leader of that name existed or that a nomadic tribe who later became the Jews were enslaved in Egypt and escaped through what they believed to be a series of miracles. What I've not seen is proof or even strong corroborating evidence that this ever happened.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naunacht wrote:
I am not a fundamentalist. I do not believe that the Bible is literally true. This would put me into company of many Christians including Pope Francis who recently asserted his belief in evolution, saying "God is not a magician." As far as Moses goes I don't discount the possibility that there may have been an ancient leader of that name existed or that a nomadic tribe who later became the Jews were enslaved in Egypt and escaped through what they believed to be a series of miracles. What I've not seen is proof or even strong corroborating evidence that this ever happened.

A very intelligent and balanced response that I can only pay my respect and regard.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Unas
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

... only because this person is also mentioned in another part of the same book only, and not known from outside this source...


From a strictly historical/human viewpoint, the books of the Bible are not the same source; the passage I quoted is from Hebrews, which is written in Greek, and many centuries (and culture) separated from Exodus. This doesn't however change my view of the Bible as one integrated story composed by one Author through many human writers. Interesting discussion.
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Unas
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
None or the Holy Books of the major religions were written by the people that lived during the Times of the events. They were written decades if not centuries AFTER THE FACTS. This caused improper tranations, as well as other people's interpretations, prejudices, And politics to be recorded as quoted facts. These writings are not a valid scientific source of I formation.


This viewpoint works...unless the book really was inspired by God!

Otherwise, I think you're likely right, and it explains many oddities, like the petty behavior of Homer's immortals.
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Unas
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:


I am not a fundamentalist. I do not believe that the Bible is literally true. This would put me into company of many Christians including Pope Francis who recently asserted his belief in evolution, saying "God is not a magician." As far as Moses goes I don't discount the possibility that there may have been an ancient leader of that name existed or that a nomadic tribe who later became the Jews were enslaved in Egypt and escaped through what they believed to be a series of miracles. What I've not seen is proof or even strong corroborating evidence that this ever happened.


Thanks for explaining your views.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unas wrote:
Quote:
... only because this person is also mentioned in another part of the same book only, and not known from outside this source...

From a strictly historical/human viewpoint, the books of the Bible are not the same source; the passage I quoted is from Hebrews, which is written in Greek, and many centuries (and culture) separated from Exodus. ...

Now, how many "divinely inspired" Bible`s are there and which is the real? And who decides the latter, and why?
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