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Nicholas Reeves : The Burial of Nefertiti? (2015)
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Thieuke
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:18 pm    Post subject: genetic issue with the official line Reply with quote

The official line from Egypt or Zahi Hawass has some issues. The two foetuses in Tut's grave where his children and they were female line relatives of Queen Tiye's mother but not through Tiye and Amenhotep III.
KV 55 cannot be both the paternal and maternal grandfather of the foetuses and we know of no other wife for Tut, while it's likely KV21A could very well be their mother. She is related to the Royal line but not the daughter of KV 55.

There are several ways to solve this problem:
1 children were of Tut with a secondary wife and not the Great Royal Wife Anchesenamen
2 Anchesenamen was not the daughter of Achenaten and Nefertiti
3 KV 55 is the paternal grandfather, however he was not Achenaten but his younger brother Smenkhkare. Leaving the option for Achenaten and Nefertiti to be the maternal grandparents and Nefertiti being a female line relative of descendant of Thuya.

Of course we also have to take into account the option that the DNA samples were contaminated and as such unusable for conclusions.
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:02 am    Post subject: Re: genetic issue with the official line Reply with quote

Thieuke wrote:
The official line from Egypt or Zahi Hawass has some issues. The two foetuses in Tut's grave where his children and they were female line relatives of Queen Tiye's mother but not through Tiye and Amenhotep III.


This, then, points towards the old theories of Nefertiti (and therefore her daughters and granddaughters) being in a line from a son or daughter of Yuya and Thuya - one candidate is Aanen who it seems was dead by Year 30 of Amenhotep III. This would explain why nobody is named as Nefertiti or Mutnojmet's father, and why they are associated with their wetnurse Tey and her husband Ay. Of course Ay is the other candidate but there's no firm evidence that he was a son of Yuya and Thuya. As Tiye's probably orphaned niece she may have been a good choice as Akhenaten's wife.

So, in that scenario, KV21A could be Ankhensenamun and the only individual not fitting in is KV55, who would likely be Smenkhkare, a younger brother of Akhenaten. It wouldn't be the first time that a younger brother of a king ended up succeeding him if no sons were available. Of course as with Tut we have a problem in that Smenkhkare's only known wife is Meritaten, who wasn't his full sister so can't be KV35YL. This opens up the possibility of Baketaten, attested at Amarna with Tiye as a candidate for the assumed sister-wife of Smenkhkare.
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In addition to the post above, on reading about Anen, his name has an interesting link to that of Nefertiti - both have the first glyph in their names reversed. This fact is pointed out in this paper -

https://www.jstor.org/stable/40000203?seq=1

Anen also had a son and 4 daughters, sadly no names survive, but this does open the possibility that he was survived by the 2 individuals I propose above, Nefertiti and Mutnojmet/Mutenberet.
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irt-akhu
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 'man in a hat' has repeatedly said KV21B is Nefertiti. He announced it last year and has consistently said so. If we decide to go see his lecture when he comes to town in a couple of months it will be interesting to see if he has backed off of that. In the meantime, real articles written by real Egyptologists like Aiden Dodsen as published in places like KMT Journal have compelling analyses.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
In addition to the post above, on reading about Anen, his name has an interesting link to that of Nefertiti - both have the first glyph in their names reversed. This fact is pointed out in this paper -

https://www.jstor.org/stable/40000203?seq=1

Anen also had a son and 4 daughters, sadly no names survive, but this does open the possibility that he was survived by the 2 individuals I propose above, Nefertiti and Mutnojmet/Mutenberet.


Very interestingpaper. Thank you for sharing it. Looking forward for the tomb's clearence.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

" Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Pharaohs and Queens -> Ay and Nefertiti (Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:25 pm) "

" Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Pharaohs and Queens -> Ay and Nefertiti (Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:53 pm) "
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
In addition to the post above, on reading about Anen, his name has an interesting link to that of Nefertiti - both have the first glyph in their names reversed. This fact is pointed out in this paper -

https://www.jstor.org/stable/40000203?seq=1

Anen also had a son and 4 daughters, sadly no names survive, but this does open the possibility that he was survived by the 2 individuals I propose above, Nefertiti and Mutnojmet/Mutenberet.

Wouldn't let me download. You need to have an account.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JSTOR - Terms and Conditions of Use :

Quote:
... People who come to JSTOR directly for access. This includes individuals who:

- register for a free individual account that enables access to a limited number of available read-only Content items for fixed periods of time (“Read Only Users”); ...

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[/quote]
Wouldn't let me download. You need to have an account.[/quote]

You can make a page by page print screen.
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Thieuke
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:17 pm    Post subject: Nefertiti's parentage/KV 55 Reply with quote

Even if Aanen was Nefertiti's father he would needed to have married a female line relative of his mother Thuya for the foetuses of his granddaughter Anchesenamen to carry a female line link to Thuya. Now i find it perfectly acceptable to assume he may have married his first cousin (daughter of his mother's sister) or even a further maternal line relative. With several children Nefertiti might very well have been one of them and after her parents died the idea of aunt Tiye taking responsibility for her nieces and placing them in the care of Ay and his wife Tey and keeping them close to court is plausible. As prince Amenhotep was not the expected heir a marriage might have been planned for him with his first cousin before his brother died. Crown prince Thutmoses might very well have been expected to marry one of his sisters.
You might even suggest that after he died, the family learnt their lesson and married the youngest son Smenkhkare to one of his sisters. Their marriage may have resulted in a son (Tut) before the wife died. By the time Smenkhkare succeeded he had remarried his niece Meritaen to claim a right to the throne as the successor of his sister-in-law and first cousin Nefertiti.

Tiye's brother Aanen being Nefertiti's father does not solve the issue of KV 55 not being able to be both the paternal and maternal grandfather of the foetuses.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitzwilliam Museum Cambridge - GLANVILLE LECTURE

Nicholas Reeves : Nefertiti - Hidden Presence in the Tomb of Tutankhamun

Wednesday 29 April 2020, 5.30 pm

Room 9, Mill Lane Lecture Rooms, Cambridge

Free, BOOKING ESSENTIAL. Email: glanville@fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk .
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicholas Reeves : The Tomb of Tutankhamun (KV 62) - Supplementary Notes (The Burial of Nefertiti? III). - Amarna Royal Tombs Project, Valley of the Kings, Occasional Paper No. 5. - 2020.

Quote:
Drawing upon new evidence first made available in 2014, the first paper in this series – The Burial of Nefertiti? (Nefertiti? I) – argued for a radical reassessment of the tomb of Tutankhamun (KV 62). The proposals there put forward and subsequently developed were: that Tutankhamun’s four small funerary chambers are to be recognized not as the abandoned vault of a high-ranking court official, but as the outer portion of a much larger sepulchre; that this larger KV 62 had been initiated for a queen – Akhenaten’s principal consort, Nefertiti; and that, a decade before Tutankhamun’s own burial here, KV 62 had been employed by Nefertiti in her capacity as Akhenaten’s successor, Smenkhkare. A second paper, published in 2019 – The Decorated North Wall in the Tomb of Tutankhamun (KV 62) (Nefertiti? II) – would provide key support for this initial analysis, identifying the presence, on the north, of an original imagery and inscriptions relating to the burial of Nefertiti/Smenkhkare herself.

Building upon Nefertiti? I-II, the present Supplementary Notes (Nefertiti? III) have a double purpose: (1) to summarise and contextualize the argument, demonstrating by means of computer animation that the evidence on which Nefertiti? I-II draws is real and of the highest significance; and (2) to counter a widely circulated, opposing claim, based on a single radar survey undertaken in 2017, that there is nothing more to KV 62 than was known to Howard Carter in 1922.

Nefertiti? III concludes that the proposals put forward in 2015 and 2019 remain valid: that the evidence does indeed support the view that Tutankhamun – accompanied by a funerary equipment designed for Nefertiti as the co-regent Neferneferuaten – had been interred within the outer section of the pre-existing tomb of the young king’s ruling predecessor, Nefertiti/Smenkhkare, KV 62’s first and presumably still-present owner.


Graphics and Animations By Peter Gremse (ConzeptZone.de)
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the link. Having digested the points made I have one criticism and one observation.

My criticism is in the section about the KV55 mummy. Reeves states that it seems that the traditional view that Smenkhkare was Tutankhamun's older brother can be dismissed because of their difference in age. What Reeves does not do is address the fact that KV55 is the genetic father of Tutankhamun. Therefore using KV55 as one argument for the case that Smenkhkare does not exist is risky, as it is proven that the two mummies were father and son, not brothers. However, all of his other points are valid - and I happen to agree (this week) that Nefertiti was Smenkhkare.

My observation is that there could indeed be a relationship between the voids detected in 2018 and KV62 as they run paralell. What I don't understand fully is the precise depth of the voids. That must surely help us to understand how likely it is that an association is the correct assessment.

Reeves has certainly made some points that I would welcome a response on. Hawass dug down to the bedrock to establish if the voids lead anything without success. We need to understand the depth of the voids. If they are indeed a continuation of KV62 they will be IN the bedrock with no discernable entrance at bedrock level.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
... My observation is that there could indeed be a relationship between the voids detected in 2018 and KV62 as they run paralell. What I don't understand fully is the precise depth of the voids. That must surely help us to understand how likely it is that an association is the correct assessment. ...

Jo Marchant : Is this Nefertiti's tomb? Radar clues reignite debate over hidden chambers. - In: Nature 578 (7796). - 2020. - pp. 497-498.
Quote:
Page 498 : "... The team detected a long space in the bedrock a few metres east of Tutankhamun’s burial chamber and at the same depth, running parallel to the tomb’s entrance corridor. The space appears to be around 2 metres high and at least 10 metres long. ...

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well that answers that and surely must warrant investigation. The height of the detected space is especially interesting.
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