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Ay and Nefertiti
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Ay and Nefertiti Reply with quote

Jim Stinehart wrote:
... Yes! That’s the early monotheistic way. Everything works out absolutely perfectly from my point of view.

Pretty story ... And so free of the only disturbing real archaeological and research findings. One theoretical assumption justifies the next presumption. Certainly enough for one or two novels. But wait, they still exist in this kind, and better ... With more sex and crime ... From Pauline Gedge.

P.S.: From my point of view.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The amount of wrong information in this thread is too much....

Readers beware
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Ay and Nefertiti Reply with quote

Jim Stinehart wrote:

7. My conclusions are as follows: (i) Akhenaten’s mother was a Hurrian (since Queen Tiye’s father was the Hurrian Yuya); and (ii) Akhenaten’s wife was also a Hurrian (since Nefertiti’s biological father was Aanen, whose own biological father was the Hurrian Yuya). Yes! That’s the early monotheistic way. Everything works out absolutely perfectly from my point of view.


There is a piece lacking in your puzzle (if I really understood what you wrote above): were the Hurrian monotheists?

Besides Yuya and Tjuya had their DNA tested. Based on this none of them were considerably different from any native Egyptian. And amazingly, Yuya was "more Egyptian" than Tjuya!
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:36 pm    Post subject: Ay and Nefertiti Reply with quote

Thanks to the good advice of Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, I obtained on inter-library loan the following key scholarly source on Ay: Otto John Schaden, “The God’s Father Ay”, Master of Arts degree dissertation, The University of Chicago, Chicago, Illinois (1966). This is the longest work on Ay, and I consider it to be the best examination of Ay.

p. ii: “Ay is often dismissed in a few lines in the histories and this prompted me to gather what is known of Ay and to relate it to the events of the period.”

Of particular relevance to this thread, Schaden considers in detail, and rejects, the older views that (i) Ay allegedly was the son of Yuya, and (ii) Ay allegedly was the father of Nefertiti. I agree with Schaden’s analysis.

A. Ay Is Not the Son of Yuya

p. 45: “Aldred has taken up the problem of the characteristics which are similar to both Ay and Yuya and he concluded that the former was the son of the latter. The points of his arguments are as follows: (1) Similarity of names…. (2) Similarity of titles (both were ‘god’s father’ and ‘chariotry general’) (3) Similarity of epithets…. (4) Connections with Akhmim…. (5) Physical resemblance.”

p. 46: “Taking a brief look at the reasons given by Aldred, the first and the fifth are the weakest: similarity of names is insufficient grounds for such an identification and as we do not have Ay’s mummy to compare with Yuya’s, one cannot make any real claims of physical resemblance.

…Other difficulties with this theory exist. There is no mention of Ay among the funerary furniture of Yuya and Tjuya. The known children of Yuya and Tjuya are Ty, the queen of Amenophis III, and Aanen, who was a priest of Amun. …[N]owhere does Queen Ty appear in the tomb of Ay, who was her brother according to Aldred’s theory.”

p. 47: “Yuya appears to have been from Akhmim, and Ay…indicated strong ties with that town by his royal monument there and the fact that several of his cohorts appear to have been from there also. It is quite likely that Ay himself was from the Akhmim area, and as such he must have had some relationship with Yuya. This relationship has been suggested to be one of a father-son relationship by Aldred, but could perhaps more likely be simply one of similar local origin and one of a professional nature. Yuya was a imy-r ssmt ‘chariotry general’ and Ay a ḥry pdt ‘commander of a host’ who served under Yuya and eventually succeeded him as ‘chariotry general’. Such a relationship would not be reading too much into the existing evidence and it would still account in part of Ay’s importance at court….”

“Ay was probably born in the Akhmim area. He may have been related to the family of the in-laws of Amenophis III or even to the king himself. His training probably began in the scribal schools, and perhaps at an early stage in his career he became involved with the military.”

p. 48: “His [Ay’s] success as a scribe and soldier were evidently great, for he was chosen to be the tutor of the crown prince Amenophis (IV). This appointment gave Ay the title of ‘god’s father’.”

B. Ay Is Not the Father of Nefertiti

p. 12: “[I]n Ay’s tomb,…[p. 13] Ay is referred to as ‘Ay, the God’s Father’. Indeed, this title of it-ntr ‘god’s father’ appears to have been Ay’s favorite and evidently most important title.”

p. 24: [The interpretation of this title that has received] the most popular support [is that] it-ntr [may mean] father-in-law of the king.”

p. 25: “The main thesis is of Borchardt’s argument centers around the similarities of the titles of Yuya (the father-in-law of Amenophis III) and Ay, plus the fact that both Yuya and Ay considered the it-ntr title to be their most important. Other texts prove beyond a doubt that Yuya was the father-in-law of Amenophis III; Borchardt then attached this same significance to Ay’s title. …With Ay, however, we do not have any inscriptional evidence to prove a father-in-law relationship to the king. The closest connection -- aside from the it-ntr title -- is to be found with Ay’s wife’s title of ‘nurse’ to Nefertiti. Ty, however, claims only to be the nurse of Nefertiti and not [p. 26] her mother. …It is safest to assume that Ty was only the ‘nurse’ of Nefertiti.”

p. 26: [Schaden himself believes that the title it-ntr/‘god’s father’ means] ‘tutor of the king’.”

p. 28: “Brunner interprets Ay’s it-ntr title as ‘tutor of the king’ and attributes a similar role to Ty in relation to Nefertiti. …[T]he latter [interpretation], that of tutor of the king, appears to be the most likely for several reasons. First, it accounts for the close relationship of Ay and Ty with Akhenaten and Nefertiti and does not require distortion of the existing texts to prove any possible family relationships. Second, it is applicable to Ay’s later career. It is possible that Ay tutored Smenkhkare, and almost certain that he tutored Tutankhaton. After being tutor to two, or perhaps [p. 29] three kings, it is not surprising that the it-ntr title was so commonly applied to him that he continued using it after he became king, even to the point of placing it in his cartouche.”

p. 49: “Davies felt that Ay owed his special position at court in Amarna to his wife Ty, her importance being indicated by her appearance alongside her husband on every occasion in their tomb scenes. …Brunner does not believe that Ay became influential [p. 50] because of his wife, but feels that Ay was important because of his role as tutor to Akhenaton.”

* * *

I agree with Schaden’s fine scholarly analysis that (i) Ay was not a son of Yuya, and (ii) Ay was not Nefertiti’s father.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:57 pm    Post subject: Ay and Nefertiti Reply with quote

Robson:

You wrote: “Besides Yuya and Tjuya had their DNA tested. Based on this none of them were considerably different from any native Egyptian. And amazingly, Yuya was "more Egyptian" than Tjuya!”

1. Could you please provide a citation for this? My guess is that the study you are citing merely said that Thuyu had more affinity to black Africans than did Yuya. That would not rule out Yuya being from northern Syria and being a Hurrian. But please, give us the citation, and then we all can look at it.

2. DNA testing seems to have confirmed that Yuya was Queen Tiye’s father. But most everyone already thought that, so that’s not real news.

3. Yuya actually is different than the other relatives of King Tut in one respect: “With the exception of Yuya (cephalic index, 70.3), none of the mummies of the Tutankhamun lineage has a cephalic index of 75 or less (ie, indicating dolichocephaly).”
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=185393

4. And here’s another way in which Yuya differs from King Tut’s other relatives: Yuya's North American MLI scores were not released because the other Amarna mummies did not have this link
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=007090;p=1

Yuyas name and proportions are abnormal to native AE [ancient Egyptians] so if his matches are a little different it don’t suprise me.

5. And there’s also this (from a cite listed below), showing Yuya to be different from your average native Egyptian: “The study of his mummy showed that Yuya had been a man of taller than average stature and the anatomist Grafton Elliot Smith considered that his appearance was not typically Egyptian.”

6. Many have often speculated, though proof is lacking, that Yuya may have been the brother of Amenhotep III’s mother, Mutemwia. That’s actually a big deal, because DNA testing suggests that Yuya was a relative of Amenhotep III, who was a native Egyptian.

(a) “Amenhotep III was tested and so was the mummy formerly called "the Elder Lady", long thought by some, including myself, to be Queen Tiye. This was confirmed, as her DNA showed her to have been the daughter of Yuya and Thuya, also included in the study. Moreover, it looks quite likely that Yuya was a relative of Amenhotep III, a rather surprising and not insignificant development. We do not, evidently, have the mummy of Mutemwia, the mother of Amenhotep III….”
http://thetimetravelerreststop.blogspot.com/2014/08/recently-i-wrote-email-to-secretary.html

(b) “Marianne Luban said...
As I said, without knowing the autosomal DNA of Thutmose IV, it is not possible to understand if Yuya was related to Amenhotep III on the side of Amenhotep's father or on the side of his mother, Queen Mutemwia. If it could be established that Yuya was a son of a king, several matters could be cleared up—”

7. Back to non-DNA considerations, the different ways in which the name “Yuya” is attested as being spelled is mind-boggling, and to my mind confirms that “Yuya” is definitely a foreign name:

“Yuya (sometimes Iouiya, also known as Yaa, Ya, Yiya, Yayi, Yu, Yuyu, Yaya, Yiay, Yia, and Yuy)[1] was a powerful Egyptian courtier during the Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt (circa1390 BC). He was married to Tjuyu, an Egyptian noblewoman associated with the royal family, who held high offices in the governmental and religious hierarchies. Their daughter, Tiye, became the Great Royal Wife of Amenhotep III.[2]
http://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Yuya&uid=1575

Origins

Yuya came from the Upper Egyptian town of Akhmim, where he probably owned an estate and was a wealthy member of the town's local nobility. His origins remain unclear. The study of his mummy showed that Yuya had been a man of taller than average stature and the anatomist Grafton Elliot Smith considered that his appearance was not typically Egyptian.

Taking into account his unusual name and features, some Egyptologists believe that Yuya was of foreign origin, although this is far from certain.[6] The name Yuya may be spelled in a number of different ways as Gaston Maspero noted in Theodore Davis's 1907 book—The Tomb of Iouiya and Touiyou.[7] These include "iAy", ywiA", yw [reed-leaf with walking feet]A, ywiw" and, in orthography—normally a sign of something foreign—"y[man with hand to mouth]iA".[8]

It was not typical for an Egyptian person to have so many different ways to write his name; this may suggest that Yuya's ancestors had a foreign origin. In "The Hebrew Pharaohs of Egypt" (ISBN 1-59143-022-4) one solution is that Yuya had some Mitannian [i.e. Hurrian] ancestry; this argument is based on the fact that the knowledge of horses and chariotry was introduced into Egypt from Asia and Yuya was the king’s "Master of the Horse." It was also suggested that Yuya was the brother of queen Mutemwiya, who was the mother of Pharaoh Amenhotep III and may have had Mitannian royal origins.[9] However, this hypothesis cannot be substantiated, since nothing is known of Mutemwiya's background.”

I agree that it is unlikely that Mutemwiya was a Mitannian princess, as she has such little status during the reign of her husband, Tuthmose IV. But with absolutely nothing whatsoever being known as to her background, Mutemwiya could have been a beautiful Hurrian noblewoman from northern Syria whom Tuthmose IV casually added to his harem, perhaps as a cheap way to further cement Egypt’s relationship with Egypt’s new ally, the Hurrian state of Mitanni. I see nothing that rules that out. The reason for making this “speculation” is because (i) DNA testing seems to show that Yuya was related to Amenhotep III, and that relationship may have come from Amenhotep III’s mother Mutemwiya, who may have been the full-sister of Yuya; and (ii) from the evidence I have adduced, there are many non-DNA factors that suggest that Yuya was a Hurrian from northern Syria.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:01 pm    Post subject: Yuya Reply with quote

The theory that Yuya may have been related to his son-in-law does not automatically imply he has to be his uncle. The relationship could be more distant.

Yuya and his wife were both Egyptian as was concluded by several studies.
Upon his marriage to their daughter Tiye Amenhotep III talked about his in-laws but never spoke of them as foreign royalty. Would he not have referred to a political alliance with Mittani if that was why he married Tiye?

Aye not being Nefertiti's father seems likely. Mutbenret is labelled as her sister that could imply several things. Both had the same parents, they shared a father or simply that Mutbenret's mother was Nefertiti's wet-nurse.
Again nothing is confirmed.

All we know is that Tutankhamen's two unborn daughters had another like to Thuya's female ancestors than through Tiye.
We also know that link came through their mother. Either Anchesenamun or any other lady he conceived them with. If their mother was his Great Royal Wife than it is likely her mother was a female line relative of Tiye. She could have been her cousin's daughter, her own first cousin or a more distant relative.

Thuya is often described as a descendant of Ahmose Nefertari but i've never seen evidence that link was tested by DNA.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:02 pm    Post subject: Yuya Reply with quote

The theory that Yuya may have been related to his son-in-law does not automatically imply he has to be his uncle. The relationship could be more distant.

Yuya and his wife were both Egyptian as was concluded by several studies.
Upon his marriage to their daughter Tiye Amenhotep III talked about his in-laws but never spoke of them as foreign royalty. Would he not have referred to a political alliance with Mittani if that was why he married Tiye?

Aye not being Nefertiti's father seems likely. Mutbenret is labelled as her sister that could imply several things. Both had the same parents, they shared a father or simply that Mutbenret's mother was Nefertiti's wet-nurse.
Again nothing is confirmed.

All we know is that Tutankhamen's two unborn daughters had another like to Thuya's female ancestors than through Tiye.
We also know that link came through their mother. Either Anchesenamun or any other lady he conceived them with. If their mother was his Great Royal Wife than it is likely her mother was a female line relative of Tiye. She could have been her cousin's daughter, her own first cousin or a more distant relative.

Thuya is often described as a descendant of Ahmose Nefertari but i've never seen evidence that link was tested by DNA.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:08 pm    Post subject: Ay and Nefertiti Reply with quote

The following straightforward scenario is, to the best of my knowledge, consistent with all DNA testing and inscriptional evidence. Yes, some aspects of this theory of the case are based on “circumstantial evidence”, but that is unavoidable.

1. First Generation: Thutmose IV; Mutemwiya; Yuya (and Thuyu)

Mutemwiya and Yuya are full-siblings who are minor Hurrian nobles from northern Syria. (Mutemwiya was not a Mitannian princess, nor was Yuya Mitannian royalty either.) Mutemwiya was a minor harem wife of Thutmose IV, utterly unknown, until their son Amenhotep III was picked to be the next pharaoh. Though Yuya was a Hurrian from northern Syria, his wife, Thuyu, was a native Egyptian. As part and parcel of Mutemwiya’s son, Amenhotep III, being named pharaoh, Mutemwiya’s niece (her brother Yuya’s daughter), Tiye, became Queen. (Tiye already had the reputation of being both incredibly smart and level-headed.)

The reason why Yuya and Tiye, who were Hurrians and were not Mitannian royalty, become important in Egypt is simply because the minor harem wife of Thutmose IV who was the birth mother of the next pharaoh turned out to be, quite unexpectedly, Mutemwiya, a non-royal Hurrian from northern Syria. Overnight, Mutemwiya suddenly became powerful. Not unexpectedly, Mutemwiya shrewdly favored her own close family members: of course her son, Amenhotep III, but also her two close family members who proved to be brilliantly capable: her brother Yuya, and her niece (brother’s daughter) Tiye. Yuya’s son, Aanen, also became a high-priest of Amen.

2. Second Generation: Amenhotep III; Queen Tiye; Aanen; Ay (and Tey)

Amenhotep III was a native Egyptian by patrilineal descent, since his father, Thutmose IV, was a native Egyptian. Amenhotep III’s mother, however, namely Queen Mutemwiya, was an ethnic Hurrian from northern Syria.
Queen Tiye and Aanen are the children of Yuya and Thuyu. Note that Queen Tiye is the daughter of the former queen’s brother (Yuya being the brother of Queen Mother Mutemwiya). In the next generation, we will see that Nefertiti has the identical family relationship: Queen Nefertiti is the daughter of the former queen’s brother (Nefertiti’s father, Aanen, being the brother of former Queen Tiye).

Yuya was both (i) the brother of the Queen Mother, Mutemwiya, and (ii) the father of the current queen, Tiye; so Yuya had excellent royal family connections. Those two women easily prevailed upon Amenhotep III to name the Hurrian Yuya to upgrade Egypt’s chariotry, Hurrian-style. Yuya was an ethnic Hurrian who had great horsemanship skills; he was also Amenhotep III’s tutor (“god’s father”); and he had excellent royal family connections. Hence Yuya’s fine tomb in the Valley of the Kings, even though he was not a pharaoh.

Aanen was Queen Tiye’s full-brother. Note that per patrilineal descent, each of Aanen and Queen Tiye would have been considered Hurrians, even though their mother was a native Egyptian, since their father, Yuya, was an ethnic Hurrian (both of whose parents were Hurrian). Aanen was a priest of Amen, and died shortly after the beginning of Akhenaten’s reign, which explains why Aanen has no significant role at Amarna (though he was Nefertiti’s father).

Ay (and his wife Tey) are not related to the royals. They are not important prior to Akhenaten’s reign.

3. Third Generation: Akhenaten; Nefertiti; Mutbenret

Akhenaten is the son of Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye. By patrilineal descent, Akhenaten was a native Egyptian, as both his father and his paternal grandfather had been native Egyptians. But Akhenaten’s mother, Queen Tiye, was a Hurrian by patrilineal descent.

Nefertiti, as noted above, was the daughter of Aanen, an ethnic Hurrian who was the full-brother of Queen Tiye. Thus like Queen Tiye before her, the new pharaoh’s wife was the daughter of the full-brother of the prior Queen of Egypt. Aanen’s wife was likely a native Egyptian who died giving birth to their fifth child, Nefertiti. By patrilineal descent, Nefertiti was a Hurrian, even though both her birth mother, as well as her wet-nurse (Tey), were native Egyptians.

It’s unclear whether Nefertiti was raised by Aanen or Ay; perhaps both played that role at various times. Aanen was an ethnic Hurrian by patrilineal descent; Ay had succeeded Yuya in the Hurrian-type role of being in charge of Egypt’s chariotry, and Ay knew that by patrilineal descent, Nefertiti was a Hurrian. So both Aanen and Ay may well have emphasized to Nefertiti the Hurrian virtue of excellent horsemanship. Nefertiti and her daughters are the only women in Egypt known to drive their own chariots, which is redolent of the Hurrians.

Nefertiti seems to have been very close to the only mother she ever knew, her wet-nurse Tey. After Aanen’s wife likely died in childbirth giving birth to their fifth child (Nefertiti), it may have been Queen Tiye who prevailed upon Ay to allow Ay’s wife Tey to nurse Nefertiti. Ay accepted, in order to gain favor at court. Ay, who previously had been unknown, became the tutor of Akhenaten (“god’s father”), and Ay’s wife, Tey, was the beloved wet-nurse of Nefertiti. Ay, a native Egyptian, succeeded Yuya as head of chariotry. Ay’s greater expertise, however, was in being a pharaoh’s tutor (a role he played regarding Akhenaten, Smenkhkare and King Tut). Ay ingratiated himself to Akhenaten by supporting Akhenaten’s religious revolution (whereas Nefertiti’s biological father, Aanen, who was a high-priest of Amen, likely never countenanced Akhenaten’s dislike of Amen).

The only “sister” Nefertiti ever knew was Mutbenret (a completely different person than the woman who later married Horemhab). Nefertiti and Mutbenret were not related by blood, but at least for a time, and perhaps most of the time, both of them had been raised by Ay and Tey. So (i) Nefertiti had a strong sisterly feeling for Mutbenret, even though Mutbenret was not Nefertiti’s sister by blood (nor did Ay and Tey ever adopt Nefertiti); Mutbenret’s birth mother was Nefertiti’s wet-nurse, and was the only mother either of them knew, which is why Mutbenret is referred to as being Nefertiti’s “sister”; and (ii) Nefertiti had a strong daughterly feeling for Tey as the only mother Nefertiti ever knew, even though Tey was not Nefertiti’s birth mother.

* * *

I believe that the above straightforward scenario both (i) is consistent with all DNA testing, and (ii) fits with the non-DNA evidence that each of Mutemwiya, Yuya, Tiye, Aanen and Nefertiti was likely a Hurrian by patrilineal descent (in some cases being a full-blood Hurrian).

If so, then the result is the following. Akhenaten, as an early monotheist, is not a Hurrian by patrilineal descent. But both Akhenaten’s mother, and Akhenaten’s original main wife #1, were of Hurrian ancestry. The Hurrians themselves had no monotheistic inclinations whatsoever. But nevertheless, and quite surprisingly, for each of the early monotheists (none of whom was a Hurrian, per patrilineal descent), the monotheist’s mother is of Hurrian ancestry, and so is his original main wife #1. Such a situation is utterly redolent of the world of the 14th century BCE, and could not have happened in any other historical era.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:26 am    Post subject: Re: Yuya Reply with quote

Thieuke wrote:

Thuya is often described as a descendant of Ahmose Nefertari but i've never seen evidence that link was tested by DNA.


Tjuya's mummy has genetic markers that makes her closer to 20th dynasty royal family than to 18th's, in special to Ramses III and the "Unknown Man E" (the sceaming Mummy). Ramses III's mother's name was also Tiye (Merenese).
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not see why Yuya being the Master of the Horse would mean he would be of Mitanni origin. There had been chariots in Egypt from at least the time of Ahmose. Ahmose's temple in Abydos shows the king in a chariot going to war.

Already during the time of Tuthmosis III there are Masters of the Horse. Minnakht from TT 87 dates to the time of Tuthmosis III, and Horemheb from TT 78 dates to the time of Tuthmosis IV-Amenhotep III.
Neither have names that are even remotely foreign sounding.
And since the chariots and thus horses have been around since 1550 BC (Ahmose) there must have been people taking care of them.

The chariots had become more common. Even the nobleman Menna fromt he time of Amenhotep III is shown with a chariot in his tomb in Thebes.

Amenhotep III seems to have had a race track at Malqata. And it is not just the King, Queen and Princesses depicted in chariots during the Amarna period. The ladies in waiting are also depicted as being transported in a chariot. And nobles such as Parennefer are shown as having chariots. There are (at least) two chariots depicted behind the nobles in the award scene for Parennefer in his tomb in Amarna for instance.

It seems to me that the depiction of the Queen and Princesses in chariots is not a sign of their foreign/Mitanni background, but much more likely a reflection of the fact that the chariot had become a fairly standard means of transportation.

Another "glitch" in all of the conjectures about Yuya is that there has been some (Aldred for instance) who thought that Yuya was a son of a nobleman named Yey who is known from a shabti from Thebes. I am not sure what the status of this theory is. The shabti is apparently in the Metropolitan Museum. I have a vague memory of an alternate theory that the shabti may belong to Yuya, but why it would have been separated from the rest of Yuya's collection of shabtis I do not know.

I think Aldred even went to far as to see Queen Merytre-Hatshepsut as the sister of this Yey and hence an aunt of Yuya.

It can be fun to come up with conjectures, but I do not see a lot of evidence one way or another. Why not assume Yuya came from a long line of descendants from the Hyksos who had stayed behind after the rest were expelled? With family business of Horse Masters?

After all, even the Ramessides claimed to come from Hyksos stock according to the 400 year stela. Why not some other noble families as well?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 8th grade English teacher liked to ride horses. Hurrian confirmed.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In all seriousness, I beleive there is a discussion in Davies. T. The Tomb of Iouya.., Duckworth reprint that makes a good case as to why the Yuya family was not foreign but Egyptian.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aset (thanks again !) pointed out to me, that in the writing of the name Aanen...



...we do not have a reverse of D54. It is rather D55 used as phonetical complement ( "ˁnn" ), see : "Gardiner’s Sign-list" .

In one of these very text-heavy posts is mentioned that Aanen had several children. I suppose this statement comes from Dodson / Hilton: The Complete Royal Families of Ancient Egypt, 2004?
Unfortunately also applies here, as in the writing of the name of Aanen, that you can not blindly trust the testifys by Egyptologists. A review of the sources is always beneficial. Dodson / Hilton do not give any source for their assertion.

Lyla Pinch Brock : Jewels in the Gebel - A Preliminary Report on the Tomb of Anen. - In: JARCE 36. - 1999. - pp. 71 - 85, on page 71 :
Quote:
"... There is no mention in the historical record of a marriage or children, but figures painted on the walls of TT 120 may represent his wife or mother and even a son. ..."

Lyla is a friend of mine. She worked several seasons in the tomb of Aanen - TT 120, both as restorer and epigraphically. On email demand she has again confirmed the statement from 1999. She could also not find in all other documents she has examined in connection with and for her work in TT 120 something to support the statement from Dodson / Hilton.

For the high development of Egyptian chariot technology already under Thutmose III, there is, in addition to various publications, a very graphic demonstration as part of a TV-Documentary from 2013 :

"Building Pharaoh's Chariot"

The summary conclusion by the contributing experimental scientist and Egyptologists is, that from Thutmose III until the coming of the Hittites, the Egyptian chariot was superior to all others of this time.

The mummy of Juja is in no way untypical for Egyptians of his time (see Hawass / Saleem : Scanning the Pharaos, 2016, p. 68 ff.). With 1,66 m he is average. His head shape is within the scope of the known, not overly flashy or even exceptional. And his name is known and used in Egypt since the Old Kingdom - for the third or fourth (?) time ... With referring to Ranke : Personennamen, 1935.

Lutz
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:

It can be fun to come up with conjectures, but I do not see a lot of evidence one way or another. Why not assume Yuya came from a long line of descendants from the Hyksos who had stayed behind after the rest were expelled? With family business of Horse Masters?

After all, even the Ramessides claimed to come from Hyksos stock according to the 400 year stela. Why not some other noble families as well?


Just to clarify: I was NOT suggesting this as a real theory!
Merely pointing out that anyone can come up with a bunch of conjectures.

Thanks to Lutz for the additional facts mentioned.
I found the article by LP Brock
Jewels in the Gebel: A Preliminary Report on the Tomb of Anen, Lyla Pinch Brock, Journal of the American Research Center in Egypt, Vol. 36 (1999), pp. 71-85 JSTOR

The tomb is much damaged and the scenes with Anen and wife/mother/female? is from a drawing made by Davies.

Quote:
On the north reveal Davies recorded a scene of "Anen and wife going in, Anen with the staff and sandals. She is in a pleated(?) robe and her toes are shown on the outer foot." On the south reveal he saw "Anen with black staff and sandals no doubt followed by his wife. Underneath is a false door dado."

But these scenes are no longer visible and apparently the notes are hard to read.

Plus - as Lutz mentioned - could be Anen and his mother Tuya.

Too bad this tomb is so badly damaged.

I could not find the comments by Duckworth mentioned by evarelap, but the original book is interesting in showing how for the longest time people have been trying to assign a Mitanni/Syrian/foreign background to the Akhmim clan. And people have been countering these theories for just as long Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
... I could not find the comments by Duckworth mentioned by evarelap, but the original book is interesting in showing how for the longest time people have been trying to assign a Mitanni/Syrian/foreign background to the Akhmim clan. And people have been countering these theories for just as long Smile

I think that is just to understand in front of the background, that the first excavators in the Middle East and also the early Egyptologists in principle only wanted to confirm the Bible as a history book...

Greetings, Lutz.

P.S.: Three additional articles about TT 120 from Lyla Pinch Brock ...

Polishing a Jewel in the Gebel. - In: NARCE. - Spring 2003. - pp. 1 - 7.

The Search for the Life of Anen. - In: The Akhenaten Sun 10-1. - 2005. - pp. 11 - 15.

A Crown of Queen Tiye in the Theban Tomb of Anen. - [With Earl Ertman]. - In: Egyptian Archaeology 33. - 2008. - pp. 16 - 17.
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