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Is the root meaning of NTR(God)=>NT (Nut/Neith/Nunet) + R

 
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Do you think the origin of the term NTR(god)=NT(Nut/Neith) + R(Ra?)
Yes
66%
 66%  [ 2 ]
No, it is what Tobin theorizes as a possibility instead
33%
 33%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 3

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rakovsky
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 5:42 am    Post subject: Is the root meaning of NTR(God)=>NT (Nut/Neith/Nunet) + R Reply with quote

Hello! I would like to find the root meaning of NTR in Egyptian. Scholars have found this word a mystery in its origins.

V. Tobin, a serious Egyptologist, writes in his book Theological principles of Egyptian religion:
Quote:
The Egyptian term for 'god', ntr, (Coptic noute), provides no real indication of the basic meaning of the Egyptian concept of deity.
...
pure. Following [one theory], one might argue that the term ntr, when used of a deity, designated his or her purity, singleness or perfection. Such an interpretation of the term ntr, however, must remain no more than speculation...

Unfortunately, all I have is a snippet from his book. Would you happen to have a copy of his book and be able to relate what his theory is?

In the next message I will explain my own theory, that NTR = NT +R
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rakovsky
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, I noticed that in Sumer, China, and the Indo-European and proto-Turkic societies, there was a common thread of both phonetics and secondary meanings when it comes to "god". They use the words Dingir, Tien, Dyeus, and Tengri, which all have a secondary meaning of heaven or sky. Additionally, Dyeus, Tengri, and Dingir have a meaning of day, bright, and shining.

Next, I saw that NTR resembles those words phonetically, and so I next considered which Egyptian gods resemble NTR in letters. I came across these three goddesses: Nunet, the primordial waters, Nut, the heavens, and Neith the weaver/warrior. It was noteworthy to me that these three are each associated with the primordial waters and heavens. Nunet is the waters of the heavens while her consort Nun takes the waters under the earth. Neith and Nut are, like Hathor, associated or directly equated with the sky cow goddess of the heavens and celestial waters, Mehet-Weret, AKA "Great Flood".

It was interesting that Neith's symbol of combined arrows reminded me a bit of Dingir's symbol:


But that leaves out the R in NTR and the aspect of shining, day, and brightness that we find in Dingir and Dyeus. So for this, consider the important association of the falcon-like Ra and his aspect Horus ("the falcon") with Nut/Neith. Each day Nut/Neith swallow Ra and give him rebirth, so they act in combination. And this is important enough that Nut is de facto called the Mansion of Horus (Hathor). Hathor is the consort of Horus, but the association between the two is also de facto the association between Ra and Nut, since Horus, Nut, and Neith are all equated with the celestial waters and heavens and depicted at times as the cow goddess.

Note also that the sun Ra is the "god of day" and the falcon Horus is the "god of light", bearing in mind that Dyeus and Dingir also bear secondary meanings of day, brightness, and shining.

Thus we find in Ra/Horus the phonetic of R and the aspects of day and brightness that we were looking for.

There is another clue that Nut/Neith/Hathor and Ra/Horus are the deities that receive focus in NTR. The Dingir sign when left alone refers to An, the male creator of the rest of the gods. Dyeus is not just a word for God, but a chief god who birthed other gods. Likewise, Tien is the supreme ruler or Shang Di in ancient Chinese mythology. The Chinese implied that just as there was a hierarchy of power on earth under an emperor, there was one in heaven, with a supreme ruler there.

So if this acts as our guide, we may ask what gods gave birth to the rest of the gods and act like a chief god or sovereign?

In Neith and Hathor("mansion of Horus"), we see that they are commonly associated with Egypt's queens and that Ra is called the father of the pharaoh, while the pharaoh is also considered an embodiment of Horus:

Quote:
Two Early Dynastic queens had names coupled with Neith - Neithhotep and Mernieth

http://www.landofpyramids.org/neith.htm

Quote:
[Hathor] was originally a personification of the Milky Way, which was considered to be the milk that flowed from the udders of a heavenly cow (linking her with Nut, Bat and Mehet-Weret). As "the Mistress of Heaven" she was associated with Nut, Mut and the Queen. While as "the Celestial Nurse" she nursed the Pharaoh in the guise of a cow or as a sycamore fig (because it exudes a white milky substance).

http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/hathor.html

Quote:

Historians believe that the pyramids might represent rays of sunlight, further connecting the pharaohs with Ra, the sun god.
...
The sacred cobra that encircled Ra’s crown symbolized royalty, sovereignty and divine authority.

http://www.ancient-egypt-online.com/egyptian-god-ra.html

Thus in Neith/Nunet/Nut and Ra/Horus we see the phonetic building blocks and the elements of meaning that we were looking for both in their phonetic resemblance to NTR and in their correlations of meaning to "god" in the other contemporary societies.

Next let's consider whether it is feasible to combine gods once we see that NT and Ra correlate to a potential foundation for NTR.
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rakovsky
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's now consider whether it's reasonable within the parameters of the ancient mindset to combine deities, like NT and R to get a picture of the supreme deity.

Normally, we might think that a male god and a female goddess are two separate entities and therefore it doesn't make sense to combine them, especially when they are different genders. But consider the following:

1. A major concept with regard to both Nut/Neith/Hathor and Ra/Horus is that they bodily combine: Nut swallows Ra every day and gives birth to him every day. De facto the celestial heavens are the "mansion of Horus", that is, serving as Horus' home is a key feature of being the heavens/Nut.

2. The Egyptians had a practice of combining gods into super-gods. For example, Amun and Ra were combined to make Amun-Ra. Atum + Ra = Atum-Ra. Combining the queen goddess Nut and the kingly god Ra would make a supreme deity, conceptually.

3. Neith and several other gods were not necessarily purely of one gender. Neith's name is sometimes written with a producing phallus, reflecting her role as a creator/creatrix. For example, her spit into the primordial waters of Nun created the hostile serpent god Apep.

4. Consider ancient Hindu religion as an illustration. Perhaps there is some correlation, as in both Egyptian and Hindu temples a flag outside a temple showed the presence of a deity. In fact, the sign for a deity (NTR) in Egyptian is a flag.

So consider this example in Hinduism. The sign for the union of mother nature with the Cosmic Man in Hinduism, who is considered responsible for creating the Cosmos in their current form, is the Shatkona, a symbol of the union of male and female principles:
Quote:

The Shatkona is a symbol used in Hindu yantra that represents the union of both the male and feminine form. More specifically it is supposed to represent Purusha (the supreme being), and Prakriti (mother nature, or causal matter).



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shatkona

The Shatkona portrays this concept by displaying two triangles intersecting and pointing in opposite directions.

Another website notes:
Quote:
Shatkona, "six-pointed star," is two interlocking triangles; the upper stands for Siva, 'purusha' (male energy) and fire, the lower for Shakti, 'prakriti' (female power) and water.

http://hinduism.about.com/od/artculture/ig/Sacred-Symbols-of-Hinduism/Symbol---Shatkonam.htm

Consider that Shiva is a leading (if not supreme) male deity in Hinduism, while Shakti is the leading female goddess in Hinduism.

A Hindu website explains:
Quote:
They are both combined to form “”. This is called Shanmukha, which represents “Origin”, or the formation of life. Shanmukha literally means Six faced.

https://vikramjits.wordpress.com/tag/shatkona/

Another one mentions:
Quote:

Overlapping they remind us that all these are qualities of one God, neither male nor female but encompassing both (✡). This symbol appears in the twelve-petalled Anahata chakra, or heart chakra.

https://western-hindu.org/2009/10/20/shaivite-hindu-symbols-the-shatkona/
Quote:

Understanding the yantra makes us understand the philosophy of the one who designed the symbol or yantra. Examle: The shatkona represents the sutra "Shiva-Shakya'tmakam Brama" meaning "The union of Shiva (God) and Shakti is Brahma (God)." or " The union of Supreme consciousness and energy is God."

https://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110310200440AAPoCi6

Now I am not proposing that the Egyptians were studying Hinduism, but rather I am suggesting that for ancient societies, such an idea as the union of central male and female deities could be considered a powerful uniting force, perhaps even reflecting one whole God, as in the saying above: "The union of Shiva and Shakti is Brahma (the Creator)".

One of the theories behind the mysterious symbol of the Ankh is that it represents a union of male and female forces. The book Ankh: Key of Life, edited by Weiser Books, explores this concept, saying:
Quote:
"The ankh, combining the traditionally masculine cross and the feminine circle or loop, can be seen as a union of opposites, especially concerning gender. In Egyptian mythology, it is often associated with the gods Isis and Osiris. The ankh's circular top portion represents the female, while its sheathlike cross represents the male. Together, these forces combine to symbolize life. THe Ankh then represents the union ... of male and female and more literally the union of the two gods.
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dzama923
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 4:59 am    Post subject: Neter Reply with quote

This seems interesting to me with a quick read through it makes sense. I am wondering as to the meaning of the word Neter since it seems to be the root also of nature, and Egyptians usually gave multiple meanings to their words. Is it used to mean more than god?
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