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Not quite the same hieroglyph

 
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Lost Pharaoh
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:04 am    Post subject: Not quite the same hieroglyph Reply with quote

Hello everybody,

I am finally here again. Because of my job, I didn't succeed to spent the time working on Ancient Egypt as I used to, but now I am back trough slow steps.

I started to work on digitization that Faulkner's dictionary once again, so I have found one word that bugs me. It is the word for HUNTER - mHw. In Faulkner's dictionary it is one kind of boat (I cannot find that hieroglyph in any sign list), but in other dictionaries (even in Wb) it is represented as regular hieroglyph for boat - P1. The source for this word is Peas. B1, 205; cf. Caminos, L.-Eg. Misc., 418, but I cannot find those sources on the internet to check up.

Here is the picture of that word/hieroglyph:



Thank you in advance for the help!
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Not quite the same hieroglyph Reply with quote

Lost Pharaoh wrote:
... The source for this word is Peas. B1, 205; cf. Caminos, L.-Eg. Misc., 418, but I cannot find those sources on the internet to check up. ...

"Peas. B1" means "The Story of the Eloquent Peasant" ... R. B. Parkinson : The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant. - Oxford : Griffith Institute, 1991. - XLVII, 48 double p. :
Quote:
This is first full parallel text edition of the Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, once intended to be included in Blackman's Middle Egyptian Stories. The book consists of two parts: the introduction and the synoptic text edition. First the author introduces the four M.K. manuscripts Pap. Berlin 3023 (B1), Pap. Berlin 3025 (B2), Pap. Butler recto (= Pap. BM 10274), and Pap. Ramesseum A (= Pap. Berlin 10499). The Pap. Amherst I and II are fragments of the mss. B1 and B2. He deals with their provenance and subsequent history (incl. a brief survey of the finds in the M.K. Ramesseum tomb), describes the papyri (with diagram of the arrangement of B1 on recto and verso), including notes on format and hand, dates them, and establishes the relationships of the manuscripts. Ms. B1 and Pap. Butler (Bt) have one unknown source. These and ms. B2 go back to an older, equally unknown source. Together with the Ramesseum papyrus (R; early XIIIth Dynasty) they stem from an archetype. A note on some post-M.K. recollection of the text is added. After the list of publications, given in chronological order, and the complete bibliography follow the concordances of old and here newly adopted line numbers of Mss. B1 (now with the Pap. Amherst I, fragments A-D in front) and R, conforming to modern practice and necessary for indicating the structure of the manuscripts. The rest of the book is taken by the text edition, with a note on the conventions in the beginning. This edition follows the classical system of transcription on the left hand and textual notes on the right hand page. Both the old and new numbering are given at the top of the pages. A number of new and improved readings are proposed, restorations for damaged sections are offered, and the variant readings of previous scholars are recorded.

"Four 12th Dynasty Literary Papyri (Pap. Berlin P. 3022-5) - A Photographic Record". - Berlin : Akademie-Verl., 2012. - 68 p., 1 DVD.


"Caminos, L.-Eg. Misc." is Ricardo Caminos : Late-Egyptian Miscellanies. - London : Oxford University Press., 1954. - XVI, 611 p. - [Brown Egyptological Studies I] :
Quote:
The present volume contains a translation of, and a philological commentary on, the New Kingdom hieratic texts edited in hieroglyphic transcription, by A. H. Gardiner under the title Late-Egyptian Miscellanies, Bruxelles, 1937, BA 8338 (Bibliotheca Ægyptiaca VII; --rev. Jaarbericht Ex Oriente Lux I, No 5 [1937-1938], 290-296 [A. de Buck] and Orientalistische Literaturzeitung 41 [1938], 293-295 [A. Hermann]--). They mostly consist of letters on a variety of topics; there are also hymns to the gods, praises of Pharaoh and his residences, and reflexions on the advantages of the scribal office over all other offices. For the purpose of translation and commentary the form in which the texts are presented in that book has strictly been adhered to. An exception has, however, been made in the case of the papyrus termed Turin A (hieroglyphic transcription pp. 507-511). The scheme of publication is as follows: heading; list of previous translations, if any; translation, notes. At the end are five indexes: a general index and one of Egyptian words (pp. 520-609), of Coptic, Greek and Hebrew words.


Hannig, Großes Handwörterbuch Ägyptisch - Deutsch (2800-950 v. Chr.), 2006 :



Greetings, Lutz.
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Lost Pharaoh
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Lutz for detailed sources. You are reliable as always.

As I see, Hannig in his book gives another hieroglyph for the boat than Wb. I ask myself why than Faulkner gives that strange hieroglyph in his book...Thats odd...
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hieratic is the hand-style of the hieroglyphs. Therefore, one should not forget that they may be quite individual, and therefore difficult to read? I have also seen a spelling with P1 (see page 48 of the PDF). It is surely possible that the different sources can have quite different variants in the spelling.
But isn`t probably the meaning / translation more important than the look? And the meaning seems to me quite clear, right?

I have not found a picture of the Papyrus Berlin 3023. But maybe these give an impession (the number 1 is Papyrus Berlin 3024) : "Ägyptisches Museum und Papyrussammlung".

If I have time on the weekend I will go to the museum and have a look if the papyrus can be seen in the exhibition.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, forget ... Faulkner looks to me like P2 : "Ship under sail".
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This page " Die Klagen des Bauern oder Die Geschichte vom beredten Oasenmann (The Tale of Eloquent Peasant) " has pictures of the Papyrus Berlin 3023.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally agree with you. I thought about the fact that is to hard to know from hieratic script which carved hieroglyph actually is. Thank you for your effort to go to the museum to see if there is a papyrus. Smile

Also I agree that in Faulkner that hieroglyph looks like ship with a sail, but it is more like some combination of P1 with the sail. Totally strange. I don't know what he want to represent. Does he saw that hieroglyph somewhere, and than draw it, or it is his misinterpretation..

I want to replicate exactly the Faulkner's Dictionary, so that is the reason I am pursuing this thing to the tiny details.

What is your opinion Lutz, which ship hieroglyph should I put in the digitized version of Faulkner's?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Faulkner looks to me like P2 : "Ship under sail".

Lost Pharaoh wrote:
What is your opinion Lutz, which ship hieroglyph should I put in the digitized version of Faulkner's?

I think, after another consideration (and consultation of various transcriptions from different authors) that Faulkner probably should be read as P1 - "Procession Bark". Right below, outside of the bark, the row is clearly visible. The seat in the middle is getting flatter to the bow of the bark (at P3 to the rear). See also ...

James P. Allen : Middle Egyptian Literature - Eight Literary Works of the Middle Kingdom. - Cambridge : Cambridge University Press, 2015. - ISBN : 9781107087439; 9781107456075. - 451 p., 5 figs. :

Quote:
This book was written to serve as a companion volume to the third edition of the author's Middle Egyptian grammar (OEB 219262). It provides editions of both well-known (the stories of the Shipwrecked Sailor and of Sinuhe, the instructions for Kagemni and of Ptahhotep, and the Debate between a Man and his Soul) and lesser-known texts (The Loyalist Instruction, the tale of the Herdsman, and the Hymns to Senwosret III) for students to apply their knowledge of the language to the exercise of working with real Middle Egyptian compositions.

Each text is presented in hieroglyphs, transliteration, translation, and textual notes. The notes deal with matters of both grammar and interpretation; the former are keyed to the rlevant sections of the author's grammar, and the latter sometimes cross-reference the essays in that book. Grammatical notes are extensive for the first text (Shipwrecked Sailor), for which every form and construction is discussed. They diminish in frequency in the subsenquent texts, as students (ideally) become more proficient in working with the language.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you. I will put P1 in the digitized version.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With this example, one might be able to demonstrate how difficult the reading of Hieratic (and even more Demotic) Texts actually is. Here the word in discussion, from Papyrus Berlin 3023, taken from...

Friedrich Vogelsang / Alan H. Gardiner : Die Klagen des Bauern - Umschreibung und Übersetzung. - Leipzig : Hinrichs, 1908. - Plate 12 & 12A:



Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, as I can see it is more complicated because of damage on papyrus, and sometimes there are new strokes which cannot be deciphered that easy.
Thank you for this submission.
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