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DNA and mummies KV35YL and KV55
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for reply, Thieke. We must cordially disgree (for the time being at least) on the identity of KV55, our guesses are at odds on this.

As to your: “Meritaten’s Mother was most likely was a relative of Tye but not her daughter.” Could you expand on your reasoning for this, please.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:06 am    Post subject: Re: KV35YL cannot be Meritaten Reply with quote

Thieuke wrote:
... 25 to 30 is stretching the physical evidence and hardly fitting in with a married man and 17 years as a reigning monarch.

King with 13/14, the first 1 or 2 years conspicuously with Queen Mother Teje in representations in Theban Noble Tombs, later with wife Nefertiti. Father with 15/16, death with about 30. What should not fit there?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:14 pm    Post subject: trying to answer both Reply with quote

Meritaten was the daughter of Akhenaten and Nefertiti. Nefertiti is never declared to be the king's daughter or the king's sister. Not even during his first years as Amenhotep IV.

Among the daughters listed from Amenhotep III and Tiye Nefertiti is never listed.
The foetuses in Tut's grave show a female line to Tiye's mother Thuya but not through Tiye. As the only known wife of Tut was a daughter of Nefertiti it's a simple conclusion to suggest she may have been a female relative of Tiye (her sister's daughter or possibly the daughter or female line granddaughter of her mother's sister).

As for KV55 being 30 that is a stretch. I don't believe Amenhotep was 14 when he succeeded. Im also wondering how you can see him succeed even as young as 13 but that Tut was too young at 8 or 9 years old and required not just one regent but two other pharaohs before he would succeed who you consider to be his father.
Im more inclined to see him as 16 0r even older before he succeeded and that would have made him over 30 at the time of his death. Im even thinking more towards 40. That is impossible as 30 is already pushing the age limit of KV55 to the max.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Habicht / Bouwman / Rühli : Identifications of Ancient Egyptian Royal Mummies from the 18th Dynasty Reconsidered. - In: American Journal of Physical Anthropology 159. - 2016. - pp. 216 - 231 :
Quote:
[Page 223:]

The mummy Cairo CG 61075 “The Skeleton from KV 55” (reign c. 1349–1333 BC) Figure 11 & 12

- ID: Akhenaton Nefer-Kheperu-Ra (Smith, 1912; Reeves, 2002; Hawass et al., 2010; Habicht, 2011, 2015; Maciejewski, 2012; Gabolde, 2013a; Dodson, 2014).

- Alternative ID: Smenkhkare Ankh-Kheperu-Ra (Derry, 1931; Harrison, 1966; Ikram and Dodson, 1998; Schl€ogl, 2012, 2014).

- Sex: Female (Davis, 1910).

- Male (Smith, 1912; Derry, 1931; Harrison, 1966; Germer, 2001; Hawass et al., 2010; Gabolde, 2013a).

- Age: Controversial: 18–45 years: Min. 25, probably older than 28 years (Smith, 1912); about 25 years (Derry, 1931); 18–25 years (Harrison, 1966); over 30 years, Harris and Hussein 1990, unpublished (Hussein and James E. Harris, 1988; Germer, 2001); 30–35 years (Wente and Harris, 1992); Less than 25 years (Ikram and Dodson, 1998; Dodson, 2014); in his early twenties (Rose, 2002); 35–45 years (Hawass et al., 2010); 27–30 years (Gabolde, 2013a; Habicht, 2014b).

- Historic age: If Akhenaton: 30–40 years, certainly older than 22 years.

- If (male) Smenkhkare: unclear, since his family background is unknown.

- A female identity of Smenkhkare would rule out the male mummy KV 55 to be Smenkhkare (Habicht,2014b).

- Coffin: Rishi-Design, unclear, if secondary from a female owner or original. ...

I see no "stretch" here, only different statements from different well-known scientists. And as long as someone has not found the "stone of the wise" of the age determination, I keep it with ...

G. Robins : The Value of the Estimated Ages of the Royal Mummies at Death as Historical Evidence. - In: Göttinger Miszellen - GM 45. - 1981. - pp. 63 - 68, on page 66:



All archaeological findings / documents / notes from / in KV 55 speak for Amenhotep IV / Akhenaten. There is not a single one among them which allows to identify the bones with a king named Semenchkara.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:29 pm    Post subject: Re: trying to answer both Reply with quote

Thieuke wrote:
... I don't believe Amenhotep was 14 when he succeeded. ...

A comparable age at the time of the ascent is assumed for his father and for his grandfather. I do not see where the problem is?
Thieuke wrote:
... Im also wondering how you can see him succeed even as young as 13 but that Tut was too young at 8 or 9 years old and required not just one regent but two other pharaohs before he would succeed who you consider to be his father. ...

I do not know what you mean / talking about ... Tutankhaton was 8 or 9 at the time of his ascent. He did not "require two other pharaohs before". There simply was the coregent, a legitimate king, still alive when Akhenaten died, and so there was no need or possibility for Tutankhaton`s accession (at an age of 5 or 6) ...
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the link to the Habicht / Bouwman / Ruhli article, Lutz.

They say the KV 55 mummy has an unfused right arm, and a completely fused left one. I learned something!
Could be related to handedness...

They are confused about the genetic exclusion at D7S820. This has nothing to do with Ankhensenamun, Ay, or the mummies from KV 21. If three conditions are met it is a fact.

Lutz wrote:

... I do not know what you mean / talking about ... Tutankhaton was 8 or 9 at the time of his ascent. ...

This is known from his estimated age at death... ?
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Thieuke
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:36 am    Post subject: Two Pharaohs Reply with quote

Between the death of Achnaten and Tut's succession two independent Pharaohs reigned.
One male one female and we do not know for certain in what order.

I can follow a theory where Nefertiti would have been elevated a co-regent and succeeded her husband but why would she be succeeded by her son-in-law and not her stepson?

If the co-ruler was male why would Achnaten elevate his son-in-law to co-regent when he had a son? Why would that successor in his place be succeeded by a woman (possibly his wife Meritaten) and why would she in turn be succeeded by her half brother and not her sister?

It simply doesn't make sense.

What does make sense is that Achnaten had no living sons. So at the end of his reign he elevates his wife to co-regent. She succeeds but is shortly afterwards herself succeeded by her son-in-law (who also is her brother-in-law). He himself dies shortly afterwards and is succeeded by his son from his first marriage to one of his sisters.
That fits in with Egyptian tradition. Women did not become Pharaoh unless there was in issue in the line of succession. Achnaten did not need to make his wife co-regent if he had a son of somewhere between 4 and 7 years old at the time of her elevation. Achnaten's own father succeeded as a young child so there would be no need for another co-regent than his son.

I can see his mother Tiye arranging a marriage between two of her younger children after 10 years in her son's reign did not produce a son. That would set up a back up for her line of the dynasty.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are forgetting one small detail here. Ankhenaton didn't exactly hold traditions dear to his heart..
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the risk of beating a dead horse, does the DNA evidence allow any possibility that KV35YL and KV55 are daughter/father? Also, KV35EL is Tiye and KV35YL he4 granddaughter?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the Hawass et al, 2010 article KV55 shows a (15,15) at D7S820. KV35YL shows (6,10). The only possibility KV35YL is a daughter of KV55 is an error in one of the four allele identifications (no more than 1 chance in 100), or a mutation of a (15) to a (10) or a (6) - (no more than 1 in 100,000).

The chance that KV35YL is a granddaughter of KV35EL rather than a daughter is about 1 in 250 (1 in 2 for each of 8 locations, or 1 in 2 times 1 in 2 times 1 in 2 ... (8 repeats)).

DNA doesn't come with names. The identification of KV35EL as Tiye is based on other kinds of information.
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanks for that. So who is polite as The’s daughter? is there a main contender?
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, who is the main candidate for KV35YL?
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Thieuke
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:27 pm    Post subject: KV35YL Reply with quote

I don't know there is a favourite.
Sitamun was the oldest daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiye she and her sister Iset were both elevated to the rank of great royal wife during their father's reign. Sitamun around year 30 of his reign. If you consider Tut was not born for another 21 years and the mummy is of a young woman of about 17 or 18 years old it's not likely to be her or any of the older girls.
Hennuttaneb was the third daughter and Nebetah the fourth. They seem likelier choices. Beketaten is sometimes seen as a daughter of AIII and Tiye at other times as a daughter of Achnaten with one of his other wives.
If she was Tiye's daughter she could have been KV35YL as well.

In case there was a co-regency between Amenhotep III and his successor than everything changes again.
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Thiuke. Can’t help thinking that KV35YL being found in sch close proximity to Tiye that we have someone very present in the record hiding in plain sight. Also I am aong those who think it odd to state the least that the boy found beween the two females was not DNA tested.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The colossal statue of Amenhotep and Tiye from Amenhotep's death temple shows three of their daughters. The third one (name unknown) may be born about Amenhotep year 25. The KV35YL mummy could be her.

Tiye and Amenhotep were together about 35 years. They have 4 or 5 daughters and 2 or 3 sons whose names are known. They probably have other children whose names are unknown.

Habicht et al, 2016 review some of the possible candidates for the identity of KV35EL. Lutz provides a link to this article in the 4th comment from the top of this page.
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