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DNA and mummies KV35YL and KV55
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did not read the book, but maybe it is for one or the other here Cool of interest (?) ...

M. Traugott Huber : Who was the Father of Tutankhamun?. - Norderstedt : Books on Demand, 2016. - ISBN : 9783741291616. - 204 p., 63 figs [plans, tables, ills (mostly colour)] :

Quote:
OEB 241743 :

Based on the archaeological records of Flinders Petrie ( 1894 ) (OEB 147222), Norman de Garis Davies ( 1903-8 ) (OEB 137916), and Geoffrey Thorndike Martin ( 1974, 1989 ) (OEB 17832, OEB 28231), the genetic data of the Amarna royals by Hawass et al. ( 2010 ) (OEB 164421), and some other jigsaw pieces, in particular by Keith Cedric Seele ( 1955 ) (OEB 4866), Ronald George Harrison ( 1966 ) (OEB 11818), James Peter Allen ( 2008 ) (OEB 167033), Eugen Strouhal ( 2010 ) (not in the OEB), Kate Phizackerley ( 2010 ) (not in the OEB), and Nicholas Reeves ( 2015, The burial of Nefertiti?, Amarna Royal Tombs Project, Occasional Paper 1 ) the author argues that:

- Smenkhkare, not Akhenaten or Amenhotep III, was the father of Tutankhamun. The mother of Tutankhamun was Meritaten, not Nefertiti or Kiya.

- Smenkhkare was real, male, and the sole pharaoh of Egypt for one year. His facial illustration is famous, but many scholars misinterpreted it. His mummy is known since 1907 from KV 55.

- Smenkhkare was the younger full-brother of Akhenaten and the husband of his eldest daughter Meritaten; Meritaten's mummy is known since 1898 as KV 35YL.

- Tutankhamun had a sole wife, Ankhesenamun, who was the mother of the two fetuses from KV 62; Ankhesenamun's mummy was detected in 1817 as KV 21A.

- A separate Amarna Pharaoh Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten did not exist. This was a new name for Nefertiti, who survived her husband by some four years and became the third Amarna pharaoh.

- Ay was the father of Pharaoh Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten and the father-in-law of Pharaoh Akhenaten. Nefertiti's mother from Akhmim was a daughter or at least a niece of Thuya. Pharaoh Ay succeeded Tutankhamun because he was influential and the last male of the royal family.

- Ankhesenamun and Dahamunzu are one and the same person. She sent the letter to the Hittite King Suppiluliuma after, not before Ay's death. After an interregnum of 1 year, and likely two murders, general Horemheb violently acceded and founded the 19th Dynasty of Egypt.

- A new genealogy of the Amarna royals is proposed, which matches the historical facts and the archaeological records and conforms the available genetic data.

It is proposed to acknowledge

- Ankhkheperure Smenkhkare as the 2nd and Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten as the 3rd Amarna pharaoh of Egypt.

- Smenkhkare as the father and Meritaten as the mother of Tutankhaten/-amun.

- Tutankhamun's 2nd wooden coffin illustrates his father Smenkhkare.

- The 18th Dynasty of Egypt ended with Pharaoh Ay, and the 19th was founded by Pharaoh Horemheb.

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Thieuke
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:02 pm    Post subject: Tut's parents Reply with quote

While i think that Smenchkare is the best option as Tut's father i have to disagree with Meritaten as his mother. She may have been his father's Great Royal Wife and married the future monarch after his first wife and sister died. DNA evidence makes it clear that KV35YL is the daughter of KV35EL and the latter has been identified as the Great Royal Wife Tiye. So Smenchkare married at least twice. Once his sister who gave him a son and the second time to his niece who put him closer to the throne after his mother-in-law/sister-in-law and female line relative of his mother.
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Sobek
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the book review, Lutz.

From Hawass et al, 2010 the KV21A mummy has a (16) allele at D13S317 and a (10) at D18S51. The KV46 mummies have (9,11,12,13) and (8,12,19,22) at these locations.

If KV21A is Ankhesenamun, KV46 female is Thuya, and KV46 male is Yuya, Nefertiti cannot be a daughter of Ay, son of Yuya and Thuya, and his full sister. Ay and a neice of Thuya is possible, though unlikely.

Barring error or mutation, of course.
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Thieuke
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:02 pm    Post subject: Aye and Tiye Reply with quote

I don't think Aye was Nefertiti's father and i don't think he was the son of Thuya and Yuya.
Im more inclined to say he was related to them or belonged to their clan but he was not part of the immediate family.
Tire's brother may very well have married his maternal cousin or second cousin and they could have been the birth parents of Nefertiti. That would make the Great Royal Wife and potential Pharaoh a full cousin of her husband. Tire's brother died young and his wife may have had a brother (real, half, step or foster) that was Aye. With Tiye's brother and his wife both dead Aye taking on their children and raising Nefertiti and (some of her) siblings would make him close enough to have an important role at the court of her husband without being closely related by blood to Thuya and Yuya.
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Huber posits that Nefertiti is not the daughter of Ay and Tey, but of Ay and a first wife, who he calls Sawama, who was a daughter of Yuya and an unnamed sister of Thuya. Mutbenret is still, in Huber's hypotheses, a daughter of Ay and Tey, but only half sister to Nefertiti. If Huber is right, I think that makes Nefertiti a third cousin to Akhenaten. I see an analogy between the Akhmin clan with the Japanese Fujiwara clan, in that they were chief suppliers of wifes to the royal family.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the Huber paper it is proposed that the letters to the Hittites were written after the death of Ay. This is interesting because it is assumed that the pharaoh in the correspondence after the Hittite Prince's death is Ay - but I don't believe that the Pharaoh is named, so it could have been Horemheb.
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Thieuke
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:22 pm    Post subject: Nefertiti Reply with quote

If she is the daughter of Tiye's halfsister and cousin Nefertiti would still be the first cousin of her husband.
I find that a very complex mix and it assumes Yuya married two sister yet he was buried with Thuya only and there was no mentioning of a second wife who also was the sister of Thuya.
That seems odd to me.
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The genealogy chart Huber has made is interesting, and highly contentious. I would like to post it, but for reasons of copyright, no.

However, in bare bones, it shows that in Huber's hypotheses Nefertiti and Akhenaten, on the female line, share a common great grandmother, that being the mother of Thuya, which I believe makes them second cousins. But this cousin thing is a bit complicated, and we don't know the relationship, if any, between Ay and Queen Tiye, which would add further complication and could make Akhenaten and Nefertiti first cousins.

Huber bases him saying that Ay had a first wife who subsequently died, on an amulet found in tomb S102 at Sawama, hence why he has called this unnamed first wife "Sawama", if for convenience if nothing else. He does not suggest that the occupant, missing, of that tomb was the mother of Nefertiti, only that, to him, it points to this putative first wife of Ay being buried at Sawama. To me it all looks a bit flimsy, and to be fair to Huber, he does admit that more evidence is required, and the contentious lines on his chart are dotted, not solid.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
The genealogy chart Huber has made is interesting, and highly contentious. I would like to post it, but for reasons of copyright, no. ...

From the copyright point of view, short citations or reproductions of extracts are possible within the scope of such discussion forums. I've been working for years with both, here in this forum and also in our German-speaking "Ägyptologie Forum" (which is more than this one here read regularly by well-known Egyptologists). I never had any problems with that ...

Important is an exact source specification, if possible also a link, preferably to a commercial provider of the cited work. Free advertising is always liked, by author and publisher ... Cool
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay then, Huber's genealogy chart of the Amarna royals.
So, of course, this is from "Who was the Father of Tutankhamun" by Dr M. Traugott Huber and published by BoD - Books on Demand in 2016

I've already indicated in part how he has arrived at "Sawama" as being the first wife of Ay, and to understand his workings, at least in full, for the rest of the chart, I guess will require buying his book, which, even if not everybody will agree with every contention, and I don't, is fascinating, and even forensic in his analysis.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, part of that chart needs some clarification as otherwise it will may cause confusion. Where he uses the name Nefertiti he does of course mean she is also Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten. Also, he puts her in KV35. He does not posit that KV35YL is Nefertiti, he believes that mummy is Meritaten, and I agree with this. He posits that Nefertiti as Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten, was entombed originally in KV62, and subsequently removed to make room for Tutankhamun, so no "hidden burial chamber", in his view. In putting Nefertiti in KV35 on the chart, he is in fact referring to the spare arm found in chamber Jd, which he thinks might possibly be hers, though does not nail his flag to the mast on this as he otherwise thinks that her mummy was destroyed at some point. On this, I hope he is wrong Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn’t it more likely / feasible that Mutemweia and Yuya are related to have the DNA make more sense throughout?
Amenhotep III and Yuya have some shared alleles; they should DNA test Tuthmosis IV from which it may be possible to understand if this is through a common ancestor via that king or Mutemweia.
I’m not sure that KV35 can be Crown Prince Tuthmose without any inscriptional evidence, although it’s an attractive idea.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There does seem a bizarre situation with DNA testing and results. It makes no sense to me why they did not test Thutmosis IV, which certainly would have added to our understanding of who was related by blood to who in his generation. Then of course the odd situation where they tested the boy, but have never said who he is related to. I still think he is too young to be Crown Prince Thutmosis though.

Let's hope we have some good news from VoK in the next month or two, then we could begin to hope that in a year, or more, we may get some questions answered.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:36 pm    Post subject: issues with Huber's chart Reply with quote

There are several issues with Huber's chart.
As already often stated Meritaten as the niece of Smenchkhare does not have the right markers to confuse her DNA with that of a full sister of her father and uncle.
There is also no evidence that Yuya married more than one wife. Had he married two sisters why would they not both have been buried in the same grave with him?

It would certainly be interesting to see more DNA testing on the mummies of the 18th and 19th dynasty.
Royal women claimed their links to the Pharaoh, being his mother, sister, wife, daughter or granddaughter. Men only claimed to be sons. I've so far never read anything about a new pharaoh killing all his brothers and nephews so there must have been other male line descendants of previous pharaohs that were no longer considered members of the royal family. We might find out more about that if more mummies are tested.

The boy in kv35 presents a mystery. He is buried with two women who were mother and daughter so it is likely the boy is also closely related to them but in what manner is unknown. Do we have an age for the boy?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The KV35 boy is approximately 11 years of age according to Smith based on his adult teeth being present - however in stature he looked smaller so the initial age estimate was 8 or 9.
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