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Horemheb
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 9:42 pm    Post subject: Horemheb Reply with quote

I was just reading a book by G.T.Martin about the tombs in Memphis.

Horemheb had a beautiful temple / tomb. He was never buried there, because he was ultimately buried in the King's Valley.

The tomb seems to show evidence of 4 Kings: there are inscriptions (partial) that seem to show Akhenaten, Thutankhamen is represented, there is a cartouche on a lintel which is probably from Aye, and the royal uraeus has been added to the figure of Horemheb, showing he became pharaoh.

Several burial took place. The most interesting:

1. Amenia, the first wife of Horemheb. Her burial chamber contains a rock-cut table or shelf. This was rather unexpected according to the author. It was supported by "stumpy columns with unusual scalloped capitals". The front was provided with a "cavetto cornice" (Anyone know what that is???) like a shrine or temple. A small libation basin was inset in the surface. The discoveries in the burial chamber seem to be unique.
Anyone know what the name Amenia means? Could she have Amarna connections? I'm just wondering because of the unusual burial chamber.
A cartouche on a lintel seems to date the burial to the reign of Aye.

Her death sseems to be timed rather conveniently? He was now free to marry his next wife. Although, a king could take many wives.

2. Queen Mutnodjemet was buried in this tomb. Bones were found that have tentatively been identified as hers. The body was that of a woman in her mid-forties, who had lost her teeth and had had several children. She was buried with the body of a baby. She may have died in child-birth.
I wonder if any of the other children survived?
They could not have been sons or they would have inherited the throne.
No children are depicted on any of Horemheb's monuments for as far as I know.
Mutnodjemet was apparently buried in year 13 of her husband's reign. This is inferred from writing on amphora in the burial chamber.
Horemheb reigned for some 22 years (according to most kinglists I have seen). Who became his Great Wife after Mutnodjemet?


3. Ushabtis of a Princess Bentanta were found. Martin indicated that he thought they belonged to the daughter of Ramses II and Queen Isis-Nofret. Bentanta was elevated to the position of Queen. Is this a tomb made for her before she became Queen? A Queen Bentanta was buried in the Valley of the Queens. (tomb 71).
Why would a royal princess choose to be buried in the tomb of Horemheb? Is it possible Queen Isis-Nofret was related to Horemheb? (This is not my theory BTW Very Happy I would attribute it to the right person if I remembered who it was)
Is it possible that Isis-Nofret was a daughter of Mutnodjmet? Could Isis-Nofret be a daughter of whomever became Queen after Mutnodjemet? Isis-Nofret does not claim to be a King's daughter to my knowledge, but then again not much is known about her.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an interesting Stela mentioning Neby.
Quote:
Neby, in his childhood, was educated at court, with the princes of Egypt, and got to reach very high positions, mainly of military type, in relation to the foreigner and focused of important way in the border city-strength of Tjaru.
It reached the top of his carreer under the reign of Tutmosis IV. It will be worth commenting on the relatives of Neby, specially what can be deduced directly from the Stela of Leiden.
But before that we will give a complete list of the titles of Neby:
1, Mayor of Tjaru
2. Royal messenger in all the Foreign Countries.
3, Administrator of the Harem of the wife of the king.
4, Head of the Troops of Tjaru
5. Governor of the Lakes hn(t)
6. Boy of the Kap (the "nursery" of the court).
7, Head of Medjayu
8. Nobleman and Prince
9. Important in his function (?)
10. Great in the House of King
11. Supervisor of Fort(?) of the Country of Wawat (Low Núbia)
12. Commander of troops of Tjaru
13. Superintendent of the Fortress(?)

The main scene of the stela, conserved in the Museum of Leiden, not only shows Neby, but also "His wife, the Lady of the House, Favorite loved his, Tausert".
In one of the smaller scenes Horemheb appears, dressed like a priest mt(?), offering to his parents.
In another small scene, we see the daughter of Neby, and therefore sister of Horemheb, Meret-Hor, offering to the parents of Neby. His father is "the priest uab of Amón, Amenemhat" and her mother is "the Lady of the House Tatjuia".


It is possible that this Horemheb is the same man who went on to become Pharaoh after the death of Aye.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2004 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wanted to come back to this first wife of Horemheb, the so-called Amenia. I know she's mentioned in another thread as well, but forgive me, even though I've looked for it quite a bit, I got lost in the maze that is often called http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/ Smile

The pre-royal career of Horemheb is not exactly well-documented and neither is his private life. No other monuments than the ones from his Memphite tomb actually mention this first wife and not much is known about her. Still, here's what I did find:


1. The name Amenia is preserved, together with the title of Chantress of Amon, on a column-panel, in the second courtyard of Horemhebs tomb in Sakkara-Memphis.

2. An ushabti is found there as well with the inscription "Semyt en imen", 'Chantress to Amon', giving the possibility Amenia was burried in this tomb Horemheb left for his new - royal - one at Thebes.

3. Since the apparent disappearance of Amenia from her husband's life before Horemheb's accession to the throne, we can safely suggest she died previously. This could imply that his second wife, Mutnodjmet, could have been chosen to legitimate Horemheb's claim to the throne. For Horemheb, it would have probably all been easier if he subsequently married a member of the old royal house rather than a non-member. This gives rise to the opinion Mutnodjmet is indeed such a member of the old royal house, maybe even Nefertiti's sister, who had the same name. This is based on Aldred, who mentions a Mutnodjmet as her sister. I'm not sure what his sources are though. Anyone got a copy of "Achenaton" there? Can't find it here, will have to order it through Amazon, but still waiting for my ***. Smile

4. Amenia is never mentioned in Amarna, which could mean the two only got married during the reigns of Aye or even Tutanchamon. This could give her about 10 years of married life with her husband since she probably died before his ascension. Long enough for any offspring, I'd say?

5. Amenia was possibly burried in year 2 of Aye since they found skeletal female remains and pottery fragments in Horemheb's Memphite grave, still mentioning Horemheb as a royal scribe in 'a year 2', together with two seals of Aye as king (Aye's year 2?).


A short parenthesis on Mutnodjmet: "Ancient Records of Egypt" by Breasted contains an inscription of Horemheb's coronation, which indicates that he married Mutnodjmet literally on the way to the coronation ceremony at the temple - he goes to her house and 'fetches' her along the way. This could support the marriage because of royal bloodlines. The date of death of this queen is based upon an impressive amount of funerary pottery from Horemheb's 13th year as a king. Then assuming that Mutnodjimet was 40 at death (estimated by a certain Strouhal, should look that guy up once) and if she was the same as Nefertiti's sister, that would make her about 4 years old when Achenaton ascended the throne. Nefertiti's sister is depicted in Amarna private tombs as a girl, so chronologically the shoe would fit. Contradictory to all of this however is how no inscriptions mention any relation of this Mutnodjmet with the royal family. On the contrary actually, Horemheb makes quite a point of stressing he got the throne by his achievements, qualities and divine election alone. Brainbreaker, that one. Smile
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The identifcation of Mutnodjemet, Queen of Horemheb with Mutnodjemet, Sister of Nefertiti has been made because of the name.

I have seen some claim that Mutnodjemet was a rare name. I think that's a bogus argument. There are several Mutnodjemets evident from several tombs.

If Mutnodjemet was royal enough to strenghten Horemheb's claim to the throne, then Nefertiti as her sister must have been more royal than is usually supposed??
Unless, H married her because she was the daughter of Aye, and hence the daughter of his predecessor. But there's no evidence that she was Aye's daughter.

I know it is a very popular theory to assume Aye as the father of both Nefertiti and Mutnodjemet, but that has been supported by inscriptional evidence.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
I know it is a very popular theory to assume Aye as the father of both Nefertiti and Mutnodjemet, but that has been supported by inscriptional evidence.


Hasn't?

This really is walking with sunglaces on through the dark.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Segereh wrote:
anneke wrote:
I know it is a very popular theory to assume Aye as the father of both Nefertiti and Mutnodjemet, but that has been supported by inscriptional evidence.


Hasn't?

This really is walking with sunglaces on through the dark.


Yup, typo! Sorry 'bout that Smile

You mean sunglasses?
No wonder we have so many posts with all the grammar corrections and such.
Just kidding of course.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hèhè... Evil or Very Mad

Actually, I always doubted how 'glasses' were written. Always too lazy to look it up though. Pardonnez moi, je suis Belge Crying or Very sad
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pas de probleme, je suis Hollandaise.
(Not to be confused with the sauce)


Back to Amenia, the first wife of Horemheb.

Convenient that she died right before H got to the throne no?
There's not much more known about her right?

I always thought that the skeletal remains in the tomb in Saqqara belonged to Mutnodjemet. Or did they also find the remains of Amenia?
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
I always thought that the skeletal remains in the tomb in Saqqara belonged to Mutnodjemet. Or did they also find the remains of Amenia?


Quote:
Amenia was the first wife of Horemheb. When she died, she was buried in the same tomb prepared for her husband. Contrary to the custom, the second wife of Horemheb, Reina Mutnodjmet , also was buried there, or that is at least what it is deduced of objects enrolled as a found statuette and a funeral glass in the tomb. Mutnodjmet accompanied to its husband during its thirteen years of reign and died without leaving no heir.


Sorry for the woggly translation, didn't do it myself.
http://inicia.es/de/alex_herrero_pardo/Mujeres_Horemheb.htm
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know they found objects belonging to both women, but the skeletal remains are dedscribed as those belonging to a woman in her 40's who's pelvis showed signs of problems with child bearing.
Plus she supposedly had very bad teeth.

Not very glamorous...
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt anyone really had good teeth those days Confused
Colgate wasn't invented yet.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crap.
That just made me spam.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL we'll learn to live with it.

I have read some studies of the remains and some suffered terribly from tooth decay. Some may have even died from the blood poisening that could follow. Yeach.

Would the same be true for the poorer people though? They wouln't have had the same amounts of sugars in their diet would they.

The life expectancy of the Egyptian royalty wasn't very high. I guess Ramses II was the biggest counter example.
But quite few of the Kings and Queens seem to have lived until their 30s, 40's and sometimes 50s.

This always makes me wonder if Horemheb could have reigned for some 26 years. He coould be one of those amazing examples of longevity, but what are the odds?
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amenhotep III ruled quite as long, but didn't rise to the throne as late as Horemheb. I think Pepi II stretched it to an impressive 102? 107 was actually considered the 'godly age', so it must've been some attained it?
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Neferuaten
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Would the same be true for the poorer people though? They wouln't have had the same amounts of sugars in their diet would they.


It had nothing to do with sugar, it was because of the bread they ate.

BTW isn't Amenia's name coming from "Amun"? Pretty unusual name in the Amarna age I guess. Is it possible that if she was ever mentioned in Amarna, it was under a different name?

And has Mutnodjmet ever been called a "King's Daughter" or only "King's Wife"?
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