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Searching for Kiya
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:10 pm    Post subject: Searching for Kiya Reply with quote

The enigmatic Kiya! Be nice to nail her down in history. Who was she? What I would like to do is isolate and re-examine the records for her. I confess from the beginning that I suspect she is Nefertiti. But I am not bound to this idea. It just hovers ad an idea I entertain. My favourite guess guess among others, but clearly favourites are not necessarily facts.

But to begin with, I should like to clear up something, if anyone here can help me. The issue of cartouches in regards to Royal Wives and Princesses, especially around the Amarna Period. Who got to be in them? For instance, did ‘Tiye’ get into cartouche? Or Sitamun? I probably should already know this, but type as I think, and just off hand can’t recall. Call it a conversation starter!
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll just briefly deal with one issue, and that is the wig found in KV35 chamber Jc. It has been suggested that as Kiya was depicted with a Nubian style wig, then KV35YL could be Kiya. But there's a problem in trying to do this. Mummies don't wear wigs, and neither do their coffins, that is real wigs and not part of the coffin decoration. If there had been a wig laying about in the original burial of KV35YL, it's difficult to imagine it being taken to KV35, why. It's one thing to have picked up a spare arm when dealing with mummies that had been unwrapped and damaged by robbers, quite another to pick up wigs, or anything else other than the mummy. Jc would have been a storeroom when KV35 was first used, and I think it more likely that it was left over when all the valuables were removed.
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
I'll just briefly deal with one issue, and that is the wig found in KV35 chamber Jc. It has been suggested that as Kiya was depicted with a Nubian style wig, then KV35YL could be Kiya. But there's a problem in trying to do this. Mummies don't wear wigs, and neither do their coffins, that is real wigs and not part of the coffin decoration. If there had been a wig laying about in the original burial of KV35YL, it's difficult to imagine it being taken to KV35, why. It's one thing to have picked up a spare arm when dealing with mummies that had been unwrapped and damaged by robbers, quite another to pick up wigs, or anything else other than the mummy. Jc would have been a storeroom when KV35 was first used, and I think it more likely that it was left over when all the valuables were removed.


From what I can remember, these Nubian was were worn but just about everyone in the Royal family, and possibly outside. Though this might be just a false memory of mine.

Regards cartouches. Did Tiye always have a cartouche, I wonder? Indeed, does she have one at all, I can’t remember off hand? I have had not time to really explore that one on the net... but will now (for a moment while having a cup of tea during a break from boring real world concerns).


[As an out-of-thread thought: I seem to remember you and I once entertaining the idea KV35YL might be Beketaten. It has come back to mind, as occasionally it does, the last couple of days...but I must not distract myself, or else this might turn into a Carter Box Thread kind of thing, and that must not be allowed! Lol]
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[Another if-thread kind of comment - though, who knows, it might pertain if this Kiya thread persists for any length of time.

Poking around just now looking for Tiye and cartouches I stumbled on Tiye, the conspirator wife of Ramesses III. Could not help noting the ‘Tiye’, which I thought an name from Akhmin (like maybe Yuya and Thuja and Ay). But I see also that the wife and mother of Ramesse III’s Heir, was Tyti... This I had only seen before in Nefer-Tyti...

Seems very much an Egyptian Name, then, if I am reading this right.

Would this suggest Nefer-Tyti was just Tyti to begin with, the ‘nefer’ being added, perhaps at the time of the adoption of Neferneferuaten? Did Tyti become Neferneferuaten Nefertiti in one gulp?

Anyway, just a thought, that might become relevant later on this thread. Who knows?]
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Robson
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ayrton wrote:


Would this suggest Nefer-Tyti was just Tyti to begin with, the ‘nefer’ being added, perhaps at the time of the adoption of Neferneferuaten? Did Tyti become Neferneferuaten Nefertiti in one gulp?


No way, complete different hieroglyphs are used in these names.
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robson wrote:
Ayrton wrote:


Would this suggest Nefer-Tyti was just Tyti to begin with, the ‘nefer’ being added, perhaps at the time of the adoption of Neferneferuaten? Did Tyti become Neferneferuaten Nefertiti in one gulp?


No way, complete different hieroglyphs are used in these names.


Thanks for that. I have seen Nefer-titi translated as Nefer-tyti. So how do we come to the same translation of names into English? Genuine question. I do not read hieroglyphs.
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robson wrote:
Ayrton wrote:


Would this suggest Nefer-Tyti was just Tyti to begin with, the ‘nefer’ being added, perhaps at the time of the adoption of Neferneferuaten? Did Tyti become Neferneferuaten Nefertiti in one gulp?


No way, complete different hieroglyphs are used in these names.


Thanks for that. I have seen Nefer-titi translated as Nefer-tyti. So how do we come to the same translation of names into English? Genuine question. I do not read hieroglyphs.
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Aset
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The transcription (of the hieroglyphs) is nfr.t jy.tj.
The traduction is "the Beautiful one has come".
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Embarassed
The transcription (of the hieroglyphs) is nfr.t jy.tj.
The translation is "the Beautiful one has come".

Aset
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aset wrote:
Embarassed
The transcription (of the hieroglyphs) is nfr.t jy.tj.
The translation is "the Beautiful one has come".

Aset


Thank you for that. Do you have the one for Tyti, Ramesses III’s Queen?
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Aset
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:00 am    Post subject: Re: Searching for Kiya Reply with quote

Arrow Cartouche of Tiye (on the right)

Arrow Cartouche of Sitamun (the second)

Aset
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:40 am    Post subject: Re: Searching for Kiya Reply with quote

Aset wrote:
Arrow Cartouche of Tiye (on the right)

Arrow Cartouche of Sitamun (the second)

Aset


Interesting. Must say that pottery of the first is exquisite!

Can you help me with Tyti, Wife (and sister) of Ramesses III?
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aset wrote:
Embarassed
The transcription (of the hieroglyphs) is nfr.t jy.tj.
The translation is "the Beautiful one has come".

Aset


Thank you for that. Do you have the one for Tyti, Ramesses III’s Queen?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

" Category : Ancient Egyptian Queens Consort " (Wikipedia - The Free Encyclopedia)
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
" Category : Ancient Egyptian Queens Consort " (Wikipedia - The Free Encyclopedia)


Appears there is a conflict as to where ‘Tyti’ belongs between the one in your link and the one mentioned below:

Wikipedia: Tiye (20th dynasty).
“Tiye is known from the Judicial Papyrus of Turin, which recorded that there was a harem conspiracy against Ramesses, in which several people in high positions in the pharaoh's government were involved. The conspirators wanted to kill the king and place Tiye's son Pentawer on the throne, instead of the appointed heir, the son of Tyti, one of the king's two chief wives.”

Wikipedia: Tyti.
“It was once uncertain which pharaoh was her husband, but he can now be identified as Ramesses III based on new evidence published in the 2010 issue of the Journal of Egyptian Archaeology (JEA). Her titles shown that she was the daughter, sister, wife and mother of kings.”

???
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