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Are the pyramids really tombs or are the experts wrong
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Montuhotep88
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:18 pm    Post subject: Re: re Reply with quote

M wrote:
If you are an expert or hold title in this day & age-people listen. When you,re a commoner, who cares what your opinion is.


And that's the way it should be. If one works and studies for years, uncovering and understanding evidence, their opinions are worth far more than the groundless ideas of someone innocent of all actual knowledge.

To put it another way, "your ignorance is not equal to my knowledge."

There is a mistaken idea very prevalent in our society that, not only do people have the right to be ignorant, but that their ignorant opinions are just as valid as someone else's informed opinions. And that's simply ridiculous.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:39 pm    Post subject: Re: re Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
M wrote:
If you are an expert or hold title in this day & age-people listen. When you,re a commoner, who cares what your opinion is.


And that's the way it should be. If one works and studies for years, uncovering and understanding evidence, their opinions are worth far more than the groundless ideas of someone innocent of all actual knowledge.

To put it another way, "your ignorance is not equal to my knowledge."

There is a mistaken idea very prevalent in our society that, not only do people have the right to be ignorant, but that their ignorant opinions are just as valid as someone else's informed opinions. And that's simply ridiculous.


When I was a boy this wasn't true. None of it.

It wasn't schooling or studying at the feet of masters that made ones opinion valuable but rather it was the content of his argument. It wasn't peers who judged him but the ability of his beliefs to explain evidence and make predictions. One didn't become an expert by writing research papers; only experts wrote research papers.

We weren't bombarded by an endless stream of vacuous and empty soup of the day science back in the '50's. Most people accepted science at face value and believed the experts were usually right and the media only promoted ideas that were logical and sensible and might be correct. They only promoted scientists who were respected and whose arguments were respected.

Now we have one crackpot idea after another being "mainstreamed" and every other day the "experts" change their opinion about coffee and everything else. The layman has learned to just quit listening. Meanwhile our schools have failed after having been taken over by the government and crackpot ideas related to the belief that results and responsibility are obsolete and only PC matters. We have uneducated bumpkins who believe whatever is put before them or whatever is put to them by experts, or both. Religions are failing and being replaced by zealots or junk science.

The fact of the matter is reality is not determined by consensus or majority. It is not even determined by the evidence really since evidence must be interpreted and there really are contradictory pieces of evidence. "Logic" doesn't really apply to anything unless it can be reduced to equations and each variable quantified.

We are in a catch-22 situation since no amount of logic and reason can change minds today. The status quo has become inviolable and the Egyptologists in charge at Giza have made repeated statements to the effect that any data that doesn't support Egyptological beliefs will not be released.

Now you'll refer to this as just so much "cracked pottery" and go right back to ignoring the fact that there's no direct evidence any great pyramid was ever designed or used as a tomb.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:16 pm    Post subject: Re: re Reply with quote

cladking wrote:
The status quo has become inviolable and the Egyptologists in charge at Giza have made repeated statements to the effect that any data that doesn't support Egyptological beliefs will not be released.


Quite the reverse. It's not scientists who conceive an idea and then "defend" it. And the whole notion of any group of scientists conspiring against some "truth" is utterly laughable. To cite a physics example, there is no conspiracy to support Einstein's equations-- in fact, every budding young physicist knows they are virtually assured of a Nobel if they can overturn Einstein. There is every incentive to propose and test new hypotheses and every disincentive to "maintain" a "status quo."

cladking wrote:
Now you'll refer to this as just so much "cracked pottery" and go right back to ignoring the fact that there's no direct evidence any great pyramid was ever designed or used as a tomb.


You've presented no evidence to the contrary apart from some demonstrably incorrect interpretations of the Pyramid Texts.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:39 pm    Post subject: Re: re Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:


You've presented no evidence to the contrary apart from some demonstrably incorrect interpretations of the Pyramid Texts.


So the literal meaning of words carved into stone isn't evidence!!!

How ironic that these words are actually chiseled into the tiny little piles of rubble euphemistically called "pyramids" and that these specific piles of rubble probably were tombs!!!!

Nevermind that every word in the PT is supported by the "laws of nature" and the physical evidence. The PT just happens to be the means by which all the physical evidence becomes a theory. Ramps are disproven by the gravimetric scan and tombs are shown not to exist by words chiseled in stone and you say I have no evidence!

Tombs are disproven by the total lack of direct evidence that any great pyramid was a tomb. "Stolen" corpses, robbers tunnels, and ideas from later times do not constitute proof that great pyramids are tombs.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: re Reply with quote

cladking wrote:
Montuhotep88 wrote:
You've presented no evidence to the contrary apart from some demonstrably incorrect interpretations of the Pyramid Texts.

So the literal meaning of words carved into stone isn't evidence!!! ... Bla bla bla ...

Montuhotep88 is not talking about "words carved into stone" ... He is talking about "demonstrably incorrect interpretations" by you. As I still wrote, we are not in a church here. What you "believe" is no proof ...
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I cannot see anything in the PT that states that pyramids are not tombs. However, there will clearly never be any consensus about this between cladking and the rest of us. So, putting aside the endless cycle of arguing about what the PT say, what evidence is there to show that the pyramids were not tombs?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
So, putting aside the endless cycle of arguing about what the PT say, what evidence is there to show that the pyramids were not tombs?


And, to make it even more specific, what evidence is there that the bodies of dead kings were not interred there? (Which would make it a tomb in any modern estimation, regardless of ancient beliefs.)
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
Ikon wrote:
So, putting aside the endless cycle of arguing about what the PT say, what evidence is there to show that the pyramids were not tombs?


And, to make it even more specific, what evidence is there that the bodies of dead kings were not interred there? (Which would make it a tomb in any modern estimation, regardless of ancient beliefs.)


Proving a negative can be pretty difficult. The onus is on Egyptology to show they were tombs and they have not done a good job of it. Yes, they have lots of circumstantial evidence but there is no direct evidence. It is an Egyptological contention that there is lots of "cultural context" yet they have no context that says the pyramids were tombs. Meanwhile there is ample reason to doubt they were tombs because of the PT.

I don't claim to know. I merely claim the PT literally says they weren't tombs. Why did they never once say the king is in the pyramid? Why did they say over and over that the king was the pyramid?

When you can answer these questions then you can say you know the cultural context. Until then all we have is evidence which never shows the pyramids were tombs.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And this is where any attempt at debate fails because the person making a claim will not accept that the burden of providing proof lays with them. That is so fundamental, and has been pointed out so many times, and been ignored, that I see no way of progressing at all, unless some evidence is put forward.

Let's play devil's advocate and give a helping hand. Many, if not all, of those with fringe ideas that the early pyramids, G1 in particular, were not tombs, point out that there are no texts or any decoration in the burial chamber, or anywhere else in the pyramid, and that this is proof they were not tombs. So, is this proof or not. I know the answer, but as I said, I'm just being devils' advocate on this.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cladking wrote:
The onus is on Egyptology to show they were tombs and they have not done a good job of it.


No. The onus is not on accepted current theory. The burden of proof lies on those who make claims counter to current accepted theory. One must show that one's own explanation fits the known facts better than the current explanation; merely attacking the current explanation is insufficient.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
cladking wrote:
The onus is on Egyptology to show they were tombs and they have not done a good job of it.


No. The onus is not on accepted current theory. The burden of proof lies on those who make claims counter to current accepted theory. One must show that one's own explanation fits the known facts better than the current explanation; merely attacking the current explanation is insufficient.


Consensus is that pyramids are tombs.

Consensus is Egyptology.

It is considered so certain pyramids are tombs the consensus in charge won't test the theory or even do microscopic forensics.

Of course they won't allow anyone else access to do the necessary testing.



Whether consensus is right or wrong at the current time is irrelevant since there's no way opinion can change. There is no mechanism short of finding new incantations that say the king is the pyramid and his grave is in the sky for current opinion to change. There's certainly no chance we're going to find an undisturbed great pyramid with or without a body in it.

So here we are with untested and untestable hypotheses and a million mysteries that show no sign of ever being solved and no mechanism for challenging or changing consensus opinion or the assumptions underlying these opinions.

I often ask the more knowledgeable people about Egyptology what exactly would need to be found to change any of the basic assumptions that highly superstitious people who had the same beliefs as the authors of the book of the dead and used highly primitive means to build pyramid tombs? What exactly would such evidence look like? Would we need a drawing of aliens with levitation rays stacking blocks? A drawing of the inside of the pyramid with no dead king in it?

One thing is for certain; all the future evidence will fit the same pattern as current evidence and be seen as a part of it. There is no real chance we'll find evidence that doesn't fit the current pattern but there's a certainty that the current pattern MIGHT be wholly misinterpreted. Indeed, that there are so many things that don't fit our interpretation can be considered prima fascie evidence that our interpretation is in error. That so much evidence is considered red herrings or are illogical is also evidence our interpretations are in error. I'd remind you that the pyramids were all stepped is virtual proof that stones were pulled straight up the side but Egyptologists can't see this.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cladking wrote:
Consensus is that pyramids are tombs.


Shouldn't the fact that that is the consensus of literally thousands of people with more education and experience than you give you pause?

Heck, I have my own ideas about what happened during the Amarna period, for example, but there isn't a single new thing I could add to the debate apart from reopening old (or not-so-old) arguments. I keep tabs on the most current research and eagerly await developments. What I don't do is go around disagreeing with people that have done the research and worked with the evidence. That would pretty much be the essence of hubris.

I'm still struggling with inanity proposed above that pyramids were canneries or sawmills. Ye cats. There is so much wrong with those statements that I don't even know where to begin, and suspect you're not serious about them.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
cladking wrote:
Consensus is that pyramids are tombs.


Shouldn't the fact that that is the consensus of literally thousands of people with more education and experience than you give you pause?

Heck, I have my own ideas about what happened during the Amarna period, for example, but there isn't a single new thing I could add to the debate apart from reopening old (or not-so-old) arguments. I keep tabs on the most current research and eagerly await developments. What I don't do is go around disagreeing with people that have done the research and worked with the evidence. That would pretty much be the essence of hubris.

I'm still struggling with inanity proposed above that pyramids were canneries or sawmills. Ye cats. There is so much wrong with those statements that I don't even know where to begin, and suspect you're not serious about them.



Of course it gave me a great deal of pause. But over the years it's become obvious that for the main part my ideas, the physical evidence, logic, and the literal meaning of the PT have very little effect on people. I fully understand why and that nobody can see anything that lies outside of their beliefs and assumptions. Even such dramatic physical evidence as the gravimetric scan simply is misinterpreted by people who believe in ramps.

We all do it and have no control over it. This is why I say we are a different species than the pyramid builders which I call Homo Omnisciencis. Essentially we each arrive at conclusion based on our assumptions. Egyptology had their assumptions and I had mine. Some people believe in aliens or giants. I believe everyone makes perfect sense in terms of their premises and so did the pyramid builders.

The great pyramids were principally easily built mnemonics top remember the king.

Secondarily the Great Pyramid itself was a time capsule.

Tertiarily the great pyramids served other functions associated with their characteristic as a water source.

Ancient people didn't think like we did so these structures probably have many other characteristics such as being clocks, calendars, gnomons, and God knows how many more.

They are mnemonics and dead kings, not saw mills. They merely happen to also be associated with saw mills because this is what the so called "mortuary temple" really was.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cladking wrote:
They are mnemonics and dead kings, not saw mills. They merely happen to also be associated with saw mills because this is what the so called "mortuary temple" really was.


Saw mills? For Egypt's burgeoning timber industry?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
cladking wrote:
They are mnemonics and dead kings, not saw mills. They merely happen to also be associated with saw mills because this is what the so called "mortuary temple" really was.


Saw mills? For Egypt's burgeoning timber industry?


[img]https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjo2NuNqonhAhUJd6wKHZudAZgQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theglobaleducationproject.org%2Fegypt%2Farticles%2Fhrdfact2.php&psig=AOvVaw2Coc-poq856R2IJ_sUk5s7&ust=1552917334250256[/img]

627a. Carry thou (him who is) greater than thou, said they to him, in thy name of "He of the Great Saw Palace."
627b. Lift (him up who is) greater than thou, said they, in thy name of "He of the Great Land Nome."

When you solve these words all in context "set" becomes the water source that powers the saws that damaged the basalt pad under the "Great Saw Palace".

There would have been tens of thousands of hours of sawing done to create all the saw cuts that are known in the great pyramids. If they had used humans to power the saws there would have been millions of hours of work. Across the board it's the exact same thing; they lacked the population and resources to do even the work we can see. There are many possibilities for motive forces they might have used but the best guess that i can see is that they often used "set" expressed as "sekhmet".

We look and see what we expect and we don't expect them to have been scientifically sophisticated in an entirely different type of science than we use. No, it wasn't "alien" or "trial and error" but rather it was based on observation and logic instead of observation and experiment. The logic was language itself which reflected the logic of the way the brain is wired.

This explains why the builders kept saying that the pyramid is the king nd his grave is in the sky and we keep seeing "the pyramid is the king's tomb where his body was". It explains why the literal meaning of the PT is simply discount by is. But most importantly it solves most of the mysteries.

You probably have't noticed but most of my points have not been addressed. The evidence that the pyramids are not tombs dragged up ramps by superstitious culture that lasted 3000 years is very extensive. You look at canopic jars, robbers tunnels, and sarcophagi and believe the pyramids must be tombs. But you aren't considering that perhaps these "robbers" were bring things into the pyramid rather than out. Perhaps they were simply intrusive burials. There is no scientific evidence tying any funeral to a great pyramid. There is no physical evidence they were tombs and the builders said they weren't. Logic dictates the simplest explanation is the correct one and the simplest explanation for why the builders literally said the pyramids were the means by which the king was remembered and it was built by the bull of heaven is that this exactly what they meant and it was real! Their words were as real as our beliefs. Their words had power where ours do not.

"Neter" does not mean "god".

"Neter" means "natural phenomenon".
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