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Are the pyramids really tombs or are the experts wrong
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M
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:53 pm    Post subject: Are the pyramids really tombs or are the experts wrong Reply with quote

Hello to whomever reads this:

I am looking for those who believe that the pyramids were not tombs. I do not wish to hear the opinion of walking textbooks who believe otherwise-to whom their beliefs are based on what the experts have said. If we all played by the book in this life, we would not have survived as a race, nor would we have a personality.
Should anybody object to this post or deem it so to feed my words back to me as if I were a child-don't. Such metior does not become me & your comments will be ignored. This is not a contest of words. Egypt deserves more than that.
The truth deserves more. If the notion of the pyramids being not tombs offends you-then please don't comment, for I'm really not interested.
We're all bored to death with histories anecdotes of what the experts think.
My question to all those who are not shallow & not afraid to form their own independent opinion is; what do you really think? You-not the experts. You.

Now-those who know something about the pyramids or believe they know something-come forward now. I could use some assistance. You may very well get the suprise of a lifetime.

Finally-I took it upon myself recently to begin learning the language of Ancient Egypt. I'm looking for any knowledge about the most suitable sites which ask learners to translate hieroglyphic sentences into the correct answer. This seems to be the most effective way for myself to learn quickly.

Thank You.
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Montuhotep88
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, they're tombs.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure they are. Nope. I disagree with your sentiment. You,ll be rolling big logs towards me next. Oh hey, here's a log. Best jump over it then lol. Whoaaa here's a cannonball heading my way now. Shocked

To re-clarify my post. Please only respond if you think the pyramids were not tombs & you are willing to discuss it in a non-theoretical fashion, going over the facts ourselves & not what the experts or those who disagree think.

Preferably communication by pm guys. I don't like public boards. Wonder why.

I'll check back here in a month. Here's hoping I get a surge of replies lol. I doubt it. I know this site is a bit quieter now. But let us see what fate will bring here & hopefully I'm not wasting my time.

Thank You.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Best check this thread in the announcements before you go any further. Friendly advice.


http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=4314
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
Best check this thread in the announcements before you go any further. Friendly advice.


http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=4314


Well, I'll take the chance we won't be talking about Bigfoot or aliens.

I don't believe they were tombs. I don't believe it because;

1.,= No direct evidence exists any great pyramid was a tomb.
2.,= The Pyramid Texts states categorically that the pyramids were not tombs and the king's grave was in the sky.
3.,= The cultural context suggests that the pyramids were in actuality mnemonics to remember the kings. It is only through being remembered that anyone can live forever.

I'd be happy to elaborate on any of this.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cladking wrote:
1.,= No direct evidence exists any great pyramid was a tomb.

What about the sarcophagi?


(Aidan Dodson / Salima Ikram : The Mummy in Ancient Egypt - Equipping the Dead for Eternity. - London : Thames & Hudson, 1998. - Page 318 & 319)

cladking wrote:
2.,= The Pyramid Texts states categorically that the pyramids were not tombs and the king's grave was in the sky.

Oh yes? In which spell emerges the statement that the tomb of the king is in the sky?

cladking wrote:
3.,= The cultural context suggests that the pyramids were in actuality mnemonics to remember the kings. It is only through being remembered that anyone can live forever.

Fallacy ... See for that the separation of tomb and memorial temple in the New Kingdom. During Old and Middle Kingdom the memorial temple, as part of the pyramide complex, was also the place of "mnemonics to remember the kings" and for offerings to make sure, that the kings could live in the sky among the gods, and not the pyramid itself.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
cladking wrote:
1.,= No direct evidence exists any great pyramid was a tomb.

What about the sarcophagi?

There is no writing anywhere that says these were tombs. Khufu's brother is buried next to the pyramid and an inscription says he wanted to be buried next to the pyramid, not next to his brother. The names of these pyramids in no case includes the word "tomb" nor the concept of "death".

The stone boxes and canopic jars must be considered indirect evidence just like the so-called robbers tunnels. No gold or flakes of gold have ever been found in a great pyramid.


Oh yes? In which spell emerges the statement that the tomb of the king is in the sky?

There are many such mentions of where the kings grave is and how he gets there (he rises on the smoke of incense because he was cremated). The most dramatic examples is ritual #364

616c. She has made them well for thee.
616d. Thou art given over to thy mother Nut, in her name of "Grave";
616e. she has embraced thee, in her name of "Grave";
616f. thou art brought to her, in her name of Maṣṭaba."

After nephythys has made the king well by rebuilding him as the pyramid the king's mummy is burned in the iskn on top of the growing pyramid during a ritual at which these words are recited. "Nut" is the "god" of the sky. More accurately "nut" is the word used when the subject of the sentence is the sky.

Quote:

Fallacy ... See for that the separation of tomb and memorial temple in the New Kingdom. During Old and Middle Kingdom the memorial temple, as part of the pyramide complex, was also the place of "mnemonics to remember the kings" and for offerings to make sure, that the kings could live in the sky among the gods, and not the pyramid itself.


There are two principle problems with our understanding. Chronologically the first problem is that the language changed and we are understanding ancient people in terms of people who came later. The other is that our language requires that we search for definitions of each word as we read or hear them to make sense of a sentence. Ancient Language loses its meaning if you do this. Every word had a single meaning and every thing had three words. If you parse the Ancient Language there is no meaning. AL can't be understood outside of scientific knowledge because it was the very basis of (natural) science.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't notice I can't edit posts so was a little careless with the "quotes" in that last post. I think most people can sort out my first response from what was being responded to...

Here's another very direct statement that they did not bury their kings in the ground;

2058a. who do not rot; N. does not rot;
2058b. who do not decay; N. does not decay;

722a. Flesh of N.,
722b. rot not, decay not, let not thy smell be bad.

They consistently said the exact same things over and over and we simply take it to mean something else. We have been doing this since the Pyramid Texts were discovered in 1883.

They literally and clearly said that the king was cremated and his body burned to protect it from degradation. The body was committed to the sky and the pyramid was a mnemonic by which he was remembered by day. By night there was a star by which he was remembered. Indeed, the entire night sky was the history of human kind.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd really like to hear M's proposal.

Indeed, I like to hear all ideas about the pyramids and their builders
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be nice and helpful if you could specify sources for your statements / assertions (for example: "Khufu's brother ... says", etc.).

In all editions / translations of Pyramid Texts I have by hand (Sethe 1908, Mercier 1952, Hays 2012, Allen 2015, and others) PT 616 is short and about a ferryman. So, here too, it would be absolutely necessary to name an edition you are using / referring to.

And if it is desired in the texts he may not decay / pass away then it is no proof that he was not buried. At the most it is a reason for the concept of mummification, to support the request artificially.

In 3000 years of Egyptian history sarcophagi (made of wood or stone) were used for burial in all epochs. Royal mummies were found in there stone sarcophagi (remains of the mummies of Djoser and Merenre, KV 35 & 62 in Luxor, Tombs in Tanis). And in the three great pyramids they were only symbolic? Not very credible...

The burning of the body was one of the worst of the punishments in ancient Egypt. It was believed that it would bring about the complete extinction of existence, including the otherworldly. I therefore think it is completely outlandish even a rudimentary incineration ritual (for which there is no time evidence) to subordinate.

James P. Allen, The Ancient Egyptian Pyramid Texts, 2005, pp. 6 - 8 :

Quote:
... The Resurrection Ritual occupies the south wall of the burial chamber. It consists of longer spells designed to release the deceasedís spirit from its attachment to the body and the earth and to send it on its daily journey to join the gods. ...

... The west end of the burial chamber in the pyramids of Unisís successors
(as well as the sarcophagus itself in the pyramid of Teti) is inscribed with a fourth series of ritual texts designed to commend the deceasedís body, identified with the god Osiris, to the sky-goddess Nut, mother of Osiris, who is identified with the sarcophagus. ...

... The other spells of the Pyramid Texts are personal rather than ritual in
nature. These allowed the deceasedís spirit to find its way safely out of the
tomb each morning and exist during the day in the company of the gods. ...

...The concept of the afterlife in the Pyramid Texts is thus one of a daily
journey from death to life, and the texts themselves were meant to ensure
the success of this journey. ...

... The Resurrection Ritual served to release the ba from its attachment to the mummified body, and the personal spells gave it the means to overcome the hazards of the nightly journey to rebirth and to join the gods in new life. ...

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
It would be nice and helpful if you could specify sources for your statements / assertions (for example: "Khufu's brother ... says", etc.).

In all editions / translations of Pyramid Texts I have by hand (Sethe 1908, Mercier 1952, Hays 2012, Allen 2015, and others) PT 616 is short and about a ferryman. So, here too, it would be absolutely necessary to name an edition you are using / referring to.

And if it is desired in the texts he may not decay / pass away then it is no proof that he was not buried. At the most it is a reason for the concept of mummification, to support the request artificially.

In 3000 years of Egyptian history sarcophagi (made of wood or stone) were used for burial in all epochs. Royal mummies were found in there stone sarcophagi (remains of the mummies of Djoser and Merenre, KV 35 & 62 in Luxor, Tombs in Tanis). And in the three great pyramids they were only symbolic? Not very credible...

The burning of the body was one of the worst of the punishments in ancient Egypt. It was believed that it would bring about the complete extinction of existence, including the otherworldly. I therefore think it is completely outlandish even a rudimentary incineration ritual (for which there is no time evidence) to subordinate.

James P. Allen, The Ancient Egyptian Pyramid Texts, 2005, pp. 6 - 8 :

Quote:
... The Resurrection Ritual occupies the south wall of the burial chamber. It consists of longer spells designed to release the deceasedís spirit from its attachment to the body and the earth and to send it on its daily journey to join the gods. ...

... The west end of the burial chamber in the pyramids of Unisís successors
(as well as the sarcophagus itself in the pyramid of Teti) is inscribed with a fourth series of ritual texts designed to commend the deceasedís body, identified with the god Osiris, to the sky-goddess Nut, mother of Osiris, who is identified with the sarcophagus. ...

... The other spells of the Pyramid Texts are personal rather than ritual in
nature. These allowed the deceasedís spirit to find its way safely out of the
tomb each morning and exist during the day in the company of the gods. ...

...The concept of the afterlife in the Pyramid Texts is thus one of a daily
journey from death to life, and the texts themselves were meant to ensure
the success of this journey. ...

... The Resurrection Ritual served to release the ba from its attachment to the mummified body, and the personal spells gave it the means to overcome the hazards of the nightly journey to rebirth and to join the gods in new life. ...


I'm sorry, I've linked this so many times that I sometimes don't when I should;

http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/pyt/pyt19.htm

The index is here;

http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/pyt/index.htm

Youir point about mummification is, of course, valid but the fact remains the Pyramid Texts consistently says the king ascends to his grave in the sky on the smoke of incense etc. This seems unequivocally to mean that the king is burned on the iskn from which he ascends;

376a. To say: The fire is laid, the fire shines;
376b. the incense is laid on the fire, the incense shines.
376c. Thy fragrance comes to N., O Incense; the fragrance of N. comes to thee, O Incense.
377a. Your fragrance comes to N., O ye gods; the fragrance of N. comes to you, O ye gods.
377b. May N. be with you, O ye gods; may you be with N., O ye gods.
377c. May N. live with you, O ye gods; may you live with N., O ye gods.

It's not just that they say it but they say it consistently and repeatedly in words that are very easily misunderstood because we aren't used to taking any utterance at all literally and this was the way they talked.

The king must be freed from his bandages to ascend to his grave;

1555a. "Deliver N. from his bandages, which restrain (?) the living, O gods,"

Certainly to later Egyptians it was necessary that your body be preserved. In a sense it was even important to the 4th dynasty kings because the best protection was a brand new 6 1/2 million ton body;

"He will rebuild N.; he will cause N. to live every day."
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arguing about interpretations of modern translations of religious texts from a completely different culture is not likely to get anywhere productive.

The pyramids fit quite well into the history of tomb architecture (great reference Dodson and Ikram, The Tomb in Ancient Egypt; Thames and Hudson, 2008). The evolution of the substructures from Tomb U-j at Abydos through the pyramids, saff tombs, the Valley of the Kings, and into later times is quite elegant. It's only when the pyramids are divorced from their context that they become something unusual and weird.

My personal favorites are the Middle Kingdom pyramid substructures with "sand-hydraulics"-- not Indiana Jones-style traps, but ways to close heavy stone boxes on the way out after burial. Ingenious people!
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cladking wrote:
I'm sorry, I've linked this so many times that I sometimes don't when I should;

http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/pyt/pyt19.htm

This is only Volume I "Translation" out of IV Volumes [II "Commentary on Utterance 1, Line 1a, to Utterance 486" (526 p.)., III "Commentary on Utterance 487, Line 1046a to Utterance 714, Line 2217 a-b" (pp. 527-953), IV "Excursuses" (IV + 327 p., pl., map)] of ...

Samuel A. B. Mercer : The Pyramid Texts in Translation and Commentary. - New York / London / Toronto : Longmans Green and Co., 1952.

Even if it does not simplify the work, a look at the commentaries is essential to understanding ... From Volume II, pages 174, 297 & 301 :



Spell (Mercer`s "Utterance") 269 describes a sacrifice of incense, not the burning of the king or his mummy.



And Spell 364 is the earliest (?) known identification of the goddess Nut with the sarcophagus, the one who takes care of the mummy, encloses, protects and prepares for the rebirth every morning.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Egytologists interpret all the words to reflect superstition, primitive beliefs, and that the pyramids are tombs. I believe they do this for two principle reasons. First they translated and interpreted the Pyramid Texts in terms of the "book of the dead" and second they simply never looked for a literal and coherent meaning to the words.

If there really was a science underlying these words then it follows you'd have to understand science to understand the language. I'm merely suggesting that it is apparent there must be some kind of logic as the basis for their words because it's all sensible and literal. If all the words can be taken literally then it's nearly certain they were intended by the authors to be taken literally.

There is no evidence that these words aren't true when taken literally so the possibility this was the intent still exists.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
Arguing about interpretations of modern translations of religious texts from a completely different culture is not likely to get anywhere productive.


This is a common argument against my interpretation. But the words still make literal sense in all the translations! Common sense says you don't need a doctorate in Egyptology to understand any translation. If you can't understand it without 20+ years of schooling then it isn't really translated at all.

Quote:

The pyramids fit quite well into the history of tomb architecture (great reference Dodson and Ikram, The Tomb in Ancient Egypt; Thames and Hudson, 2008). The evolution of the substructures from Tomb U-j at Abydos through the pyramids, saff tombs, the Valley of the Kings, and into later times is quite elegant. It's only when the pyramids are divorced from their context that they become something unusual and weird.


No. This isn't really true. Great pyramids sprang out of nowhere. The very first pyramid was a great pyramid 200' tall and they never built another as tall. Then they eventually built G1 which required about 45 times as much work as this first one.

It's very difficult to see this because Egyptologists refer to everything as "pyramids" and believe these structures were tombs. Strip away the belief that they are tombs and there's precious little evidence that they are and the Pyramid Texts still literally says the pyramids are the kings themselves and that the king's tomb is in the sky.

There is no "cultural context" except what is built up on assumptions.
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