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anneke
Queen of Egypt
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305
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 Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Of course there's the Mnevis bull (in Egyptian, mer-wer or nem-wer), the Heliopolis bull worshiped as a manifestation of the ba or power of Re; this was once an independently worshiped deity that later became associated with the sun god.
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This has nothing to do with the original question, but isn't "mer-wer" also a military title? I can't find a reference for it.
Doesn't it mean something like "great supervisor", "great overseer"?
Strange name for a bovine deity...
[Isn't "a manifestation of the ba" a sheep? - Just kidding; haven't completely lost my marbles yet.]
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kmt_sesh
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Joined: 13 Nov 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | isn't "mer-wer" also a military title? I can't find a reference for it.
Doesn't it mean something like "great supervisor", "great overseer"? |
Essentially, yes, but not just necessarily military. It could be applied to anyone who holds a high supervisory office or station. I'm not sure of the actual meaning behind the name of this god, though. Many linguists and Egyptologists believe that although "overseer" is often spelled with the glyphs for the owl ("m") and mouth ("r"), this became a somewhat abbreviated spelling for "overseer" and the word should be more properly pronounced imy-r. That's often how you see it glossed nowadays.
Of course, there are numerous Egyptian words that are spelled "mr" or contain the root "mr." The word for pyramid is "mr," as are the words for "weavers," "canal," and "libation trough." It all depends on the particular glyphs employed and especially the determanitive. I have an even harder time trying to figure out the older version of the name: "nem-wer." The "nem" root is an even more common element in words, and I'm not sure how to define it.
| Quote: | | [Isn't "a manifestation of the ba" a sheep? - Just kidding; haven't completely lost my marbles yet.] |
No, that's not a ba, silly. That's a ba-a-a-a-a-ah. 
(Postscript: have you started to regret telling me how to get at all those extra emoticons?) |
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anneke
Queen of Egypt
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:50 am Post subject: |
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I realize that trying to find the meaning of the word from just the transliteration, withouth the hieroglyphics is "dangerous". But it's a fun game 
I found in Collier and Manley's book that 'nm' can be represented by a butcher's knife. That would be distressing to the bull if his name incorporated a butcher's knife don't you think? 
LOL Then again, maybe it's written completely different...
| Quote: | | No, that's not a ba, silly. That's a ba-a-a-a-a-ah. |
Ooooooh. Okay.
| Quote: | | Postscript: have you started to regret telling me how to get at all those extra emoticons? |
LOL The phrase "kid in a candy store" comes to mind 
I can't really say too much about it though, not always super serious myself. I bet you hadn't noticed....
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kmt_sesh
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I found in Collier and Manley's book that 'nm' can be represented by a butcher's knife. That would be distressing to the bull if his name incorporated a butcher's knife don't you think? |
I'd forgotten that context, and actually, from a ritualistic standpoint it makes a certain kind of sense. No? But you're right, without the glyphs we can't be sure, and I've yet to see the glyphs for "nem-wer."
| Quote: | | LOL The phrase "kid in a candy store" comes to mind |
I don't think I could have said it any better.  
| Quote: | | I can't really say too much about it though, not always super serious myself. I bet you hadn't noticed.... |
You're kidding? I always thought you were rigid and severe...NOT! |
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sinzi
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Joined: 20 Jan 2005
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Location: romania
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Ok, so the minotaur may had a conection with Ehypt but was there any conection between the worshiped bulls and the labyrinth? Is there a possibility that the bull was worshiped more in that period of time? I tried to find some information about this but I couldn't find anything. |
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anneke
Queen of Egypt
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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The worship of cows/bulls is very very old. There's evidence of it in predynastic times.
We may not be able to find a direct link between the labyrinth and the bull though. When the greeks and romans came to egypt this temple (the labyrinth) was already 1300 years old.
These travelers may have also gone to Saqqara and seen the Serapeum. Who knows how they jumbled up their stories?
And no doubt the temple of Amenemhet III must have contained images of cow-headed deities. Or even the bull headed ones from the book of the dead.
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isisinacrisis
Pharaoh
Joined: 17 Jan 2004
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Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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I know the worship of bulls was carried out in Crete by the Minoans, and that's where I originally thought the minotaur came from. But you lot seem to be suggesting Egyptian origins...which is pretty interesting. Do you think the Minoan bull worship may have had roots in Egypt?
I've heard theories that the Greeks took a lot of myths or concepts of myths from Egypt. Not sure to what extent, but if you look carefully you may spot a few. For example, Khnum moulding the first humans from clay immediately brings to mind the Greek myth of Prometheus doing the same.
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anneke
Queen of Egypt
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| isisinacrisis wrote: | I know the worship of bulls was carried out in Crete by the Minoans, and that's where I originally thought the minotaur came from. But you lot seem to be suggesting Egyptian origins...which is pretty interesting. Do you think the Minoan bull worship may have had roots in Egypt?
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I don't know. Interesting idea though.
Somehow reminds me of the minoan style decorations they found in the delta region. Seem to date to early 18th dynasty?
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isisinacrisis
Pharaoh
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Another Egyptian religious concept I heard about which has an obvious resemblance to Greek myth is there's a god who's the 'ferryman of the dead'. I can't remember his name, but when i first heard of it, it reminded me of the Greek Charon.
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sinzi
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| I've heard of this myth too. Was it Aken or Aker. I know that they both appear in ancient Egypt mythology, I just don't reember exactly which one of them was the 'ferryman of the dead' |
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sinzi
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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I found this on touregypt. Here is something about Aken:
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Patron of: the ferryboat that carries the souls of the dead to the underworld.
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I knew that there has to be something regarding Aker too. I always mix things up. 
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Aker is an earth god who also presided over the western and eastern boarders of the Underworld. It was Aker who opened the earth's gate for the king to pass into the Underworld. He was also known to absorb the poison from the body of anyone bitten by a snake and he neutralizes the venom in the belly of a person who has swallowed an obnoxious fly.
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isisinacrisis
Pharaoh
Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 2228
Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Another thing I'll add is that the Minoans did indeed trade with the Egyptians. There's a tomb painting with Minoan traders on it. Maybe the two cultures swapped ideas...
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kmt_sesh
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:54 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I know the worship of bulls was carried out in Crete by the Minoans, and that's where I originally thought the minotaur came from. But you lot seem to be suggesting Egyptian origins |
There are some similarities between bull adoration in Egypt and among the ancient Aegeans, but I don't know of any evidence that the Egyptian worship of bulls had much to do with Minoan practices. The bull is a fairly common symbol of verility and fertility in numerous ancient Mediterranean and Middle Eastern cultures. The Minoan depiction of bull rituals is quite different and rather striking, right down to the famous "bull-leaping" events: precursor to the modern rodeos of the American South?  I hope no one thought I meant to imply that the Greeks got their Minotaur from Egyptian bull worship. I merely suggested it as a possibility with the examples of Egyptian cow deities I mentioned.
| Quote: | | Somehow reminds me of the minoan style decorations they found in the delta region. Seem to date to early 18th dynasty? |
I've read that many of these Minoan frescoes, floor tiles, and other art styles originated during the reign of the Hyksos pharaohs, who definitely developed strong ties in the 2nd Intermediate Period to peoples from all over the Mediterranean region.
| Quote: | | Another Egyptian religious concept I heard about which has an obvious resemblance to Greek myth is there's a god who's the 'ferryman of the dead' |
I think I've read about this version of Aker, but I don't think it's accurate to the Egyptian view. There was both Aker and the Akeru, the latter of whom go all the way back to obscure mentions in the Pyramid Texts as primeval earth dieties who "tremble before the king." The singular Aker is certainly attested in the form mentioned by sinzi, as the diety who opened the gate of the earth to allow pharaoh to pass into the underworld. Aker was said also to protect the kingly spirit by restraining serpent deamons--again, much as sinzi quotes.
In the tomb of Ramesses VI there is the inscribed Book of Aker, in which Aker is said to imprison the coils of the serpent Apophis after it had been cut up. Sometimes Aker is depicted as little more than a strip of land with human-like heads at each end, which represent the entrance and exit of the underworld. Later on he was also depicted as the foreparts of two lions or sphinxes joined back to back, to represent the two horizons. Much of this is described in Wilkinson's The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt, a handy reference indeed! Maybe I've just missed it, but in mainstream literature I've never read of the ferryboat aspect of Aker; I think it may be a confusion with the Greek Charon by early historians as they tried to understand Aker.  |
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isisinacrisis
Pharaoh
Joined: 17 Jan 2004
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Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Actually, it's not Aker who's the ferryman, it's Nemty.
I found it in an old post here. Apparently, he features in one of the Horus v. Seth myths, where he refuses to let Isis across to a meeting where no goddesses are allowed, but she tricks him by offering him gold, whereby he ferries her to the 'island' of the gods. And then Nemty is punished for this.
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sinzi
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| I did look for some information about Nemty because I never heard of before. I couldn't find much but you are right isis. He was condsidered a sort of 'ferryman' but so was aker. Do does this mean that there where two ferrymen? Hmm, kind of strange. |
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