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A goddess named Irerti?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:15 am    Post subject: A goddess named Irerti? Reply with quote

I was looking at J.H.Breasted's book and noticed this inscription from Konosso dating to the reign of Thutmosis IV.
The inscription describes a trip south to Nubia to quell an uprising.
A goddess, Irerti, is mentioned that I have never heard of.

Quote:
...Montu was in Erment (=Hermonthis) as the protection of [his] every limb; Irerti (Yrrty) led before; every god of the South bore the [--] before him; Nekhbet, the White, of El-Kab, she fastened the adornments of my majesty, her two hands were behind [me], she bound for me the Nine Bows together....


I looked at some other sites and the only think I could find is that suppposedly Isis was known as Thenenet or Zenenet in Hermonthis.

The text seems to link Irerti to Hermonthis, and maybe even link her with Montu???
Are there other Goddess names that are close to Irerti? Or Yrty?

I first thought of Astarte, but that just seems a bit far off.

Any ideas?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may be 100% wrong in this, but the name Nefertari is written nefer-t-yry isn't it?
nefer means beauty of beautiful. What does t-yry mean?
Could is be a reference to this goddess, or does it mean something else entirely???

If Yrrty is related to one of the incarnations of Isis, then is Nefertari maybe a name that means "beautiful is Isis"?
I'm probably just stringing too many theories together.......
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just saw that possibly Nefer-tari means Beautiful-female companion.
Maybe Irerti is a version of tari and she's the female companion of Montu in the inscription of Konosso?
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never heard of this goddess and couldn't find any information on her. Perhaps she was a Theban-region minor deity? The consorts of Montu were the obscure Raettawy and Tjenenyet--is it possible Irerti was a different manifestation of one or the other?

I couldn't find any goddesses that were even close to the spellings of Irerti or Yrty. At first I was as willing as you to dismiss Astarte, but I gave her a closer look. It's fitting that she should be tied in with Montu. For the most part Astarte figured into the iconography of Lower Egypt, but there are depictions of a goddess at Deir el-Medina that many believe to be her. Astarte was a Semitic goddess of love and fertility but was also a war deity, which is how she is most often figured in her Syrian-Canaanite manifestation (historians believe she may have originally come from the Babylonian goddess Ishtar).

Astarte in Egypt is particularly tied in with war chariotry and horses. She's mentioned on the Sphinx Stela. In Egypt she was regarded sometimes as the daughter of Re and sometimes as the daughter of Ptah.

With all of these warfare aspects she seems a good match with Montu. Perhaps the Irerti/Astarte theory is not so far off. Wink
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you know where Hermonthis (or Erment) was? I got the impression that it was further south than Thebes.

I'm not sure how good the transliteration from Breasted's book is either. Could be that the letters are slightly jumbled.
I did the same as you I think Cool I looked for Arty, Yrty, etc.

I did notice that Isis went by many names, so I considered it being another one of her names. It's rather puzzling....
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You said you got your info from one of Breasted's books? "Erment" must just be how he spelled Armant, the modern name for that area. The site to the Egyptians was called Iuny (Greek Hermonthis, as you know). It's about 10 miles south of Luxor. The importance of the site goes back to the 11th Dynasty, but about all that remains now are the ruins of a pylon erected by Tuthmosis III. What's most disturbing is how the temple was destroyed. In the 19th Century the Arabic Pasha named Muhammad Ali tore down this one and others for the stones so as to build sugar-refining factories ! Mad

Breasted died in 1935. I don't want to question the hieroglyphic transcription of one of the greatest Egyptologists in history, but our understanding of the hieroglyphic language was much more incomplete at the time. It's possible he or perhaps some clumsy editor jumbled the transliteration. We'd have to see the glyphs themselves to make sure. I'm hardly about to say Breasted was wrong, though. Embarassed I don't rate.

I should say that I've occasionally read that Astarte did not come to Egypt until the 28th Dynasty. I don't think that's correct. I don't know quite what to make of "Irteri," and though to my knowledge she was never considered a consort of Montu, in warfare depictions she would make a perfect match, given how the Egyptians viewed her.

As to your question about Nefertari, her name begins of course with the nfr glyph, and it's then followed by t, i, and ry. Thus, nfrtiry. The "beautiful" root is easy to decipher, but the tiry is a bit trickier. I don't think "female companion" is correct. That term is smrt (as in smrt hr, "female companion of Horus"), a very common title or epithet. I've always read that her name simply means "The Most Beautiful," though it's probably more complex than that. The closest meaning I can think of for tiry is "to worship" or "to revere," so that may have something to do with it and someone decided "The Most..." was simply the easiest way to translate it.

In other words, I don't know. Surprised
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Breasted's book it's mentioned that Thhutmosis IV visits Hermonthis on his way to Nubia.
If it's only 10 miles from Luxor, then this must have been on the early part of the trip. Maybe some way to try to get the blessing of the gods and goddesses early on.

They used stones to build sugar refining factories? Shocked
Hope he took the elevator down after he expired Evil or Very Mad

Quote:
I should say that I've occasionally read that Astarte did not come to Egypt until the 28th Dynasty. I don't think that's correct.

Some of Ramses II's children were actually named after Astarte, so her cult had made it over to Egypt relatively early. (As did the cult of Anath.)

Quote:
The closest meaning I can think of for tiry is "to worship" or "to revere,...

That's interesting. I had been wondering if Irerti (or Yrrty) was some version of 'tiry'. It seems that some of the goddesses names were "descriptive". So to have one named "Worship" or "revere" is not that strange. Of course I'm firmly in "speculation land" here Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
They used stones to build sugar refining factories?...Hope he took the elevator down after he expired


Ali was hardly alone. I know it's politically incorrect of me, but sometimes I fantasize about going around the modern towns of Egypt, reclaiming all of the stolen stones, and rebuilding the various temples and monuments of the Two Lands. Of course, that would leave much of the modern towns of Egypt in ruins! Cool

Quote:
So to have one named "Worship" or "revere" is not that strange. Of course I'm firmly in "speculation land" here


Nothing wrong with that. Without speculation there would be no scientific or historical study, and the world would be pretty dull. I suspect Nefertari's name actually translates as something like "The Beautiful Revered One" and, like I said, the original transcribers simply rendered it "The Most Beautiful" and left it at that.



You can see the cartouche of Nefertari on the rear wall in this photo, between the queen and the crowned Horus: Nefertari, Beloved of Mut. I think her tomb is the most beautiful in the Valley of the Queens. The Egyptians have been working feverishly in the past few years to preserve it.
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The restoration of Nefertari's tomb has been completed, and it is the show-case of the valley! Access is limited now, in an effort to control the humidity generated by tourists. The restoration-work was done mostly by a team from the Getty Museum in L. A. The restoration is very easy to spot, and this was done on purpose, so that, in the future, if more restoration is needed, those doing the work will be able to see what has been done at this time.
There is talk among SCA members of closing the tomb to the public, and building a replica for people to visit. Personally, I think this is a bad idea. Limiting access to the tomb, even severely, is, in my opinion, a more workable plan. No replica would be able to give the "frisson" a person feels from seeing the work of the ancient artisans.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you, Osiris II. A replica tomb would be very interesting, but not the real thing. I'm pleased to hear they have completed restoration. I think the SCA has discussed the option of closing the tomb every other year, as they do with other tombs and monuments. That would probably be the best option, in my opinion.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the restoration was done by an Italian team? I saw a documentary once where they showed how they would fill in areas in a "striped way". From a short distance this would look like solid color (or close to it), but anyone could se up close what was original and what was restored painting.

As wonderful as it is to be in the original sites, I can understand why they would need to restrict access. Are they thinking of having a replica maybe for the years in which the tomb might be closed??
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Are they thinking of having a replica maybe for the years in which the tomb might be closed??


I don't know why that didn't occur to me. That's a terrific solution. A future position for you in the SCA, perhaps?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy As consultant?

Nice of you to provide me with a great daydream Wink
Not holding my breath.... Cool
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
I thought the restoration was done by an Italian team?

As wonderful as it is to be in the original sites, I can understand why they would need to restrict access. Are they thinking of having a replica maybe for the years in which the tomb might be closed??


The Getty supplied the money and expertise--several restoration teams, including Italian, did the actual work.

A replica for the years that the tomb would be closed will not work--the SCA is talking of closing the tomb permanently. But there's no need to get upset--at this point it is only talk, and they have discussed the closing of the tombs for several years now with no results.
It's a hard decision to make. The tombs and monuments in Egypt are a major toursit draw, in fact, most of the economy of Egypt is from the tourist
trade. In my opinion, it would be a great mistake. People want to see the actual work done centuries ago. Let's face it, Egyptian art is probably some of the finest in the world!
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isisinacrisis
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree...maybe a virtual replica will be done, but it's not the same. I bloody hope that it's open by the time I visit Egypt...that is, if I ever do...
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