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Question regarding a tablet
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kinch
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:50 pm    Post subject: Question regarding a tablet Reply with quote

Hello all.

I am a newcomer and I come with a request for help. Smile

Attached is an image of a tablet I received from my grandfather when he died. He was very interested in Egyptian history and due to this I can only assume that it is related to this history.

Anyway, I am curious where something like this might have come from, and what the inscription of the tablet references.

I have also included an image of the book/folder within which the tablet came, as it is also a bit interesting.

Any help would be great. My assumption is that it is a random piece taken/bought from Egypt or a replica thereof and was held by my grandfather due to his fascination with the nation and its history.



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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It appears to be a cartouche, or king's name in an inscription. One of the elements is Horus (the bird with a crown). I cannot read heiroglyphs, perhaps someone else could give you a translation.
It's an interesting piece. Hard to tell from the photo if it authentic or not. It's a great keepsake though. The jacket is is keep in looks quite old!
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kinch
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info.

As I have NO knowledge, everything is helpful.

The jacket, I assume, is from my grandfather's other strange pursuits. He was less concerned with Egypt's history than he was with strange supernatural pursuits. I have inherited a huge library of books on things from Egypt to psychic phenomena to Disney Land. He was an odd guy. He was also a member of the Rosicrucian order. . .
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isisinacrisis
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting...I'm reading this book, and I've started a chapter on the Roscrucians. I don't know much about them (I will when I read more). This sounds like a really fascinating, and it sounds like the sort of thing that could inspire a detective story. (maybe it's the bit about the grandfather giving his grandchild a clue about a secret society and an ancient secret, and that reminds me of the Da Vinci Code Wink )
Don't mind me, I'm just in an inspirational mood now Smile
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kinch
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is very funny - I was thinking of the Da Vinci code also.

I actually inherited all these items due to my mother - her and all her siblings (5 others) considered her the most like grandfather, who they, in a somewhat weird way, seemed to worship (probably because my grandmother was very messed up and mean). Anyway, I was the "weird" kid and hence the one assumed to be the person who should inherit this weird stuff. I also received much Rosicrucian stuff, seance tables, weird candle things, etc. I have mostly ignored it as much of the literature is hilarious - really bad Edgar Casey (sp?) and psychic stuff. However, before she died, my mom also converted to the Rosicrucian way.

Anyway, it is a weird history. I even remember my mom telling me of a person to ask if I had any questions regarding Grandpa's stuff and their tradition. I was 20 (almost ten years ago) and never did. My family, or my mom's family, also thought that her and grandpa (and apparently me) were "special." I am way too logical to have cared, but have grown curious. . .

Weird stuff, eh? Very Happy
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isisinacrisis
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoa. You have a very interesting family and life. Dan Brown should see this...he could write a brilliant sory based on this! Or maybe I could...you don't mind me being inspired by this to write a story? Just the bit about the tablet and the grandparent...I hope you don't mind. My writing muse is fired up!

Edgar Cayce was that psychic guy who who said that Disney Land was where the Egyptians came from Disney Land? I admit I'm not into those theories. But the Rosicrucians were much older than Cayce-they started in the 1700s and Cayce was in the 1960s, I think...I'm not sure but did the Rosicrucians practice Egyptian rituals? If I'm not mistaken, there's a connection with the freemasons...or maybe I've seen too many conspiracy theories! Laughing
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kinch
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Believe it or not my mom never mentioned anything weird about the Rosicrucians. All I remember her telling me was that ¨many streams flow from one river¨and that all religions were connected and, in their own way, correct. I also remember my sister and I thinking she was a freak. Smile
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kinch
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, one more quick post:

I think the cover for the tablet is Scottish. My family is Scottish and the lion on the cover looks very much like that on the royal Scottish flag.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting tablet. It reminds me a little of what is called a serekh.
A serekh is an early fore-runner of the cartouche. Here's an example

The disk at the top is the sun-god Ra (sometimes called Re). There's a diagonal shape that looks like an ankh sign. This means 'life'. The bird looks like Horus. This may be a Horus name of a king.
(A king had several names - up to 5 I think-, the Horus name was one of those.)

Underneath the bird are what looks like a tethering rope. This sign carries the sound 't'. Underneath is what looks like a sickle? If so this carries the sound 'ma'.
So the name starts with "T(e)ma". Doesn't ring a bell right now.

I'm not really good with hieroglyphics, so maybe some of the other members will be able to tell you more. Smile
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isisinacrisis--Cayce died in 1945. I think his "visions" concerning Egypt were first published in the '30's, but I'm not sure.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice to meet you, kinch. I can't help you with the book, but the piece of tablet is wonderful. I'm very jealous of you. Surprised

The falcon is definitely a depiction of Horus; note the double-crown he is wearing. And anneke's correct about the sun disk in the upper-left corner, as well as the ankh just to the left of the falcon (at least the bottom half of the glyph looks to be an ankh; the upper half is damaged and quite unclear on my screen). We have a very similar piece in our museum that dates to Ptolemaic times.

The hieroglyphs are trickier to identify because so much is lost. My guess is that this probably is not a serekh but all that remains of a votive stela. The sickle-glyph is in fact transliterated as m3 (we just pronounce it "ma" as anneke indicated), and is a common element in many Egyptian words. The tether might help us date it. Prior to the Middle Kingdom the tether represented a completely independent tj or tch sound, but by the Middle Kingdom, while it still could be used for those sounds, it began to be used interchangeably with the simple t sound, particularly in the case of pronouns, genetives, and various other suffixes (some Egyptologists state that this shift didn't take place till around the 18th Dynasty, though).

As a suffix pronoun it would indicate the feminine "you," used in the sdjm.n=f (past tense) form. The m3 could easily be an abbreviation for (or all that remains of) the word m33 ("to see," "to view," "to behold"). So with the Horus figure it could be taken to mean m33.n=tj Hr, "You viewed Horus...," depending on what other glyphs were there. It would be referring to a woman, perhaps for whom the stela was made.

Alternatively, and similar in concept, is the tomb of Meres-ankh. Glyphs very similar to the ones on your tablet are used to describe her as "Beholder of Horus and Set." The tether in this case is simply the feminine ending in the word "beholder." This was a common sort of epithet, even for women, and this is the translation I myself favor for your tablet.

As a third choice, the sickle is often used as a component in the common epithet m3'-khrw, which translates literally as "true of voice" but is often simply rendered today as "the justified." It is often (but not always) an epithet applied to the dead, which was the purpose for which votive stelae were often (but not always) produced.

Hope this helps. It's a beautiful piece, kinch. Hold on to it!
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have a feel for what tim period this belongs to kmt sesh?
It doesn't look old Kingdom to me. I would guess new to late kingdom??? But I'm no expert on dating artifacts.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Do you have a feel for what tim period this belongs to kmt sesh?


I really don't have any way of being certain by just looking at the photo. It closely resembles pieces I've seen from the Late Period into Ptolemaic times, but I can't be sure. Your guess is as good as mine. If my own analysis from my last post is correct (about the usage of the tj tether glyph) it would date to no earlier than the Middle Kingdom, but when I look at it "Late Period" pops into my head every time. I don't know why. Too much is absent from the piece to be sure.

Tell you what. Convince kinch to loan to me, and I'll get back to you! Twisted Evil

Just curious: what makes you think late New Kingdom?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way the images are carved made me think New Kingdom or Late period. Something about the depth of the carving. Don't know how else to put it.
Something about the way horus is carved. There's a certain amount of crispness in the way the double crown is executed. The clean lines of the hieroglyphics. (I can't put my finger on it any better than that.)
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kinch
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly, thank you all so much for your help. I should have done this a long time ago!

Would something like this be more likely to have been taken from a wall or found as a item free of attachment? The back is very smooth, which is why I referred to it as a tablet.

I am trying to read about all that you all are saying as I find it very interesting. . . Maybe I need a new hobby. . .

The only thing that bothers me is that I feel there should be a better place for it - not so much that is of any importance in comparison with the vast amount of more interesting items from ancient Egypt, but more that any removal of such items is a bit sad.

Oh well. Smile
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