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Kush, Nubia and Ethiopia
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:30 pm    Post subject: Kush, Nubia and Ethiopia Reply with quote

I have read about Kush, and sometimes this seems to be referred to as Nubia. From what I have read it seems that Kush was situated in modern Sudan. At least that's where places like Gebel Barkal, Meroe, El-Kurru, Napata etc are located.

Here's a map of africa
[It's copy-righted, so I will refer to the location on a national geographic website. ©1999 MAGELLAN Geographix  Santa Barbara, CA (800) 929-4MAP   -    AFRICA]

Some sources comment about contact with the Ethiopians. But as you can see on the map, Ethiopia is much further south.
Is there evidence that the Egyptians had contact with the Ethiopians?
What kind of civilization woould have existed in Ethiopia? Similar to the one in Kush?

I can only find references to the people of Axum in Ethiopia. But this is much much later (AD in fact).
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you look at the map, you will see 'Nile" written near an 'S' formed segment of the river. This area is where the great Nubian cities of Meroe, Napata, etc were roughly located.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't Ethiopia the land of Punt? Or was that Somalia? I can't remember right now...
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know. Good question Very Happy

It would make some sense if Punt was Ethiopia. The expedition during the reign of Hatshepsut went by sea, so landing in Ethiopia makes some sense then. I thought that it was not clear where Punt was exactly.

The people from Punt are depicted looking somewhat like the Egyptians qua clothes if I remember correctly. That does kinda address my questions. I was curious how far south the civilizations spread that interacted with Egypt. And how similar/different they were from Egypt.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one yet knows for certain where Punt was located, but most historians I've read seem to believe it was in Ethiopia, near the coast.

We all know about the Kushite empire of the 25th Dynasty, and the long history of control Egypt had maintained over Nubia before that. I've always been more interested in Nubia from the perspective of the Egyptians and their interactions, so I myself do not know a lot about the Napata culture and the other peoples of ancient Kush.

On the massive base of a fractured colossus of Ramesses II recently found in the ruins of Akhmim, is a listing of 13 conquered foreign peoples including these from Kush: Iunu-Nubia, Kedney-Gurses, Irkerek (though it's possible this one refers to Punt), and Kery-Nubia. I suppose that these are either different Nubian tribes or the names by which the Egyptians called certain Nubian cities. I'm not sure.

The modern Sudan is the location of ancient Nubia. There's no doubting that. The Egyptians referred to the area as K3sh or Kwsh. The Greeks gave us the name "Nubia," from the Egyptian nbw, which was their word for "gold." Logical enough, no? Many of the modern people of the Sudan still adhere to a socio-tribal culture that stretches back to the Nubian days. This is also the source of much of the horrible violence taking place there lately--ancient tribal "feuds" that pop up even in modern times.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was just looking at a book by Morkot, and he says something about what I think is a confusion. In the 19th century, it seems that the nubians were referred to as Ethiopians. Some of this confusion seems to come from the bible where Tirhaka (Taharqa) is referred to as an "aithiopian king".
Some of the quotes I was looking at were from the 19th century / early 20th century.

Kush was quite a complex region as kmt_sesh(et) mentioned. It has a history dating back to 4000 BC.

Some information comes from the tombs of high officials from the 5th and 6th dynasty. There were kingdoms named Wawat, Irtjet and Satju which were joined under the rule of one chief during this time (from tomb of Harkuf at Aswan). These regions are thought to make up lower Nubia (i.e the part closest to Egypt). Further south lay Yam, and Medja lay in the hilly regions between the nile and the Red Sea.

This was the situation during the old kingdom in Egypt, and the situation in Kush changed.

Pharaohs went on military expeditions (almost like rite of passage it seems), but how far south did they go?
The Sudan is quite large, and the power structure in Nubia seemed to be rather 'fluent'.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting topic, I've always been interested in how much contact Egyptians had with sub-Saharan Africa. I think some confusion has arisen because the Greeks used to use the term Ethiopia to refer to anywhere south of Egypt, not necessarily modern Ethiopia. I believe that ancient Kush extended from the second cataract of the Nile to the sixth, where it branches into the blue and white Niles. I've always understood Punt to be on the coast of East Africa, probably SOmalia, because of its myrrh trees, and not too far from the Saudi peninsula, because of the Semitic element in the population.

As I understand it, there were two ways of getting to Punt. One was to travel southwards down the coast of Africa, and the other was to travel south down the Nile, then travel through places called Irem and Nemay, and then you arrived at Punt. So this would presumably involve a journey down the Blue Nile into Ethiopia, and Irem and Nemay would be in Ethiopia, as it's difficult to see how you could reach the coast of *** from the Nile any other way.

There was a man called, I think, Harbkhuf, who undertook several journeys down the Nile into Africa in the 5th dynasty. I don't know if it was the Blue or White Nile, though (or even if the Egyptians distinguished between the two branches in this way). Interestingly, he met a pygmy on his journeys, and this pygmy was not the first to be seen at court either. Pygmies are native to the central African rainforest, and I notice on a map of Africa that several tributaries of the White Nile lead into the rainforest. I suppose this would have been a long and not very pleasant journey, though.

Another intriguing thing is that Claudius Ptolemy, the 2nd century Greek geographer and astronomer, knew the source of the White Nile. He knew that it arose in the region of three great lakes on the equator (it does) surrounded by snow-capped mountains (they are). The Greeks knew quite well where the equator was, so he wasn't mistaking it for the source of the Blue Nile. I wonder how he came by this information, as I've never heard of any Egyptian, Greek or Roman expedition to find the source of the Nile.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I looked up Irem in Morkot's book. He states that locating that place has been problematic, and on the other hand important in understanding the reach of Egypt into Nubia.

Morkot treats Thutmosis and Hatshepsut as a joint reign.
He states that Hatshepsut herself led the first campaign into Nubia. The second led by Thutmosis III was in year 12. Then two more in years 20 and 21/22.
Thutmosis III goes on a major and far reaching campaign somewhere after year 31. He describes going all the way to the land of Miu where a rhinoceros was captured. Miu is thought to lie somewhere between the 5th and 6th cataract?

In year 34 the sons of the Prince of Irem were sent to Egypt. Irem (according to Morkot) is generally thought to lie in the vicinity of Kerma. Some think it may be the same as the earlier Yam.
Others believe Irem was located much further south: in central Sudan.
Irem was responsible for sporadic "rebellions" (quotes are Morkot's) throughout the 18th and 19th dynasties.

If Irem was located further south then it would mean that Egypt's actions into Nubia were much more extensive than previously thought, and on the other side it would mean that the Nubian Princes were much more aggressive in their reactions towards Egypt.

meresankh wrote:
Another intriguing thing is that Claudius Ptolemy, the 2nd century Greek geographer and astronomer, knew the source of the White Nile. He knew that it arose in the region of three great lakes on the equator (it does) surrounded by snow-capped mountains (they are). The Greeks knew quite well where the equator was, so he wasn't mistaking it for the source of the Blue Nile. I wonder how he came by this information, as I've never heard of any Egyptian, Greek or Roman expedition to find the source of the Nile.

That is quite intriguing. Makes me wonder if the Nubians knew more about the Nile and imparted that knowledge to the Egyptians.
On the other hand there may have been an equivalent of the 5th dynasty Harkhuf who travelled south.

This would be the kind of information stored at the Library of Alexandria, right?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Egyptians knew that the source of the Blue Nile was Lake Tana in Ethiopia, though I honestly can't remember where I read it now. As for the White Nile, it seems that in southern Sudan, there is a huge swamp called the Sudd, which effectively makes the White Nile impassible at this point. Even the 19th century explorers took months getting through it. According to a Wikipedia article, there were Greek and Roman expeditions to find the source of the White Nile, but none of them could ever get past the Sudd. It seems unlikely that anyone ever managed to sail down the White Nile to its source in antiquity, then, so all I can guess is that the source of Ptolemy's knowledge was travellers' tales, maybe from people who had travelled in Ethiopia, and had heard it from people who had travelled further south, who had heard it.... you know what I mean!
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:28 pm    Post subject: Punt Reply with quote

If you take a look at Hatchepsouts temple, you'll see that the egyptians went to Punt in boats, large boats.
Sailing southwards down the Nile to get to Kush (Aithiopia) is impossible with large boats because of the "Cataracts"
So they sailed eighter upward the Nile or sailed southwards the Red sea to get to Punt.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best theory is that they sailed up the Nile partway, then disassembled the boats and trekked east through one of the wadis to the Red Sea, and sailed south from there. We did talk about these theories, and this thread is already dusty and old so I can't remember if it was here. Interesting discussion we had going for a while.
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KENNDO
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:
No one yet knows for certain where Punt was located, but most historians I've read seem to believe it was in Ethiopia, near the coast.

We all know about the Kushite empire of the 25th Dynasty, and the long history of control Egypt had maintained over Nubia before that. I've always been more interested in Nubia from the perspective of the Egyptians and their interactions, so I myself do not know a lot about the Napata culture and the other peoples of ancient Kush.

On the massive base of a fractured colossus of Ramesses II recently found in the ruins of Akhmim, is a listing of 13 conquered foreign peoples including these from Kush: Iunu-Nubia, Kedney-Gurses, Irkerek (though it's possible this one refers to Punt), and Kery-Nubia. I suppose that these are either different Nubian tribes or the names by which the Egyptians called certain Nubian cities. I'm not sure.

The modern Sudan is the location of ancient Nubia. There's no doubting that. The Egyptians referred to the area as K3sh or Kwsh. The Greeks gave us the name "Nubia," from the Egyptian nbw, which was their word for "gold." Logical enough, no? Many of the modern people of the Sudan still adhere to a socio-tribal culture that stretches back to the Nubian days. This is also the source of much of the horrible violence taking place there lately--ancient tribal "feuds" that pop up even in modern times.


remember that much of egypt conquest of nubia was in lower nubia,most nubia remain free .
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
remember that much of egypt conquest of nubia was in lower nubia,most nubia remain free .


You're correct, KENNDO. Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Ancient Egyptians didn't call Nubia as "Nubia"...

What was "the real name" of Nubia then?

The Greeks called Kingdom of Kush as "Aithiopia". This was "the real Ethiopia". Today's Ethiopia's name came from that.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here it says "T3-sty" (Ta sety) for Nubia:

http://www.jimloy.com/hiero/dict14.htm


and here:

"The traditional ancient Egyptian name for Nubia was Ta- Seti , "Land of the Bow" (as in "bow and arrow"). "

http://www.touregypt.net/historicalessays/nubiae1.htm

and I found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_names_of_Nubia

"Ancient Egyptians called Tanehsu, the land down south from the first cataract of the Nile River. In Tanehsu, they called the land between the first and second cataracts, Wawat."


Is it true? Idea
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