Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

KV55 Revisited...again!
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Sphinx
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Meritaten
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 97
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:52 am    Post subject: KV55 Revisited...again! Reply with quote

Have done a search for this and couldn't locate it, but please hit me over the head if it's someplace obvious and I've overlooked it...I know that if ever a topic has been done to death, it's the identity of the occupant of KV55.

However, I came across the following in this link:

http://www.egyptology.com/kmt/summer98/forum.html

My understanding was that Smenkhare was about the only name from Amenhotep III to Tutankhamen not in the tomb, although he is a front running candidate for the skeletal remains found within. However, the Reader's Forum has an editorial comment that:

Quote:
...the reconstructed trough (container) of the KV55 coffin has been found to exist outside Egypt [visitors to the Egyptian Museum, Cairo, will recall that it isn't on display there] and its interior - on the private report to this editor of several Egyptologists who have personally seen it or, in one case, photos of it -contains an inscribed band of gold foil [missed by Maspero et al., having been crushed into a ball that the excavators did not unwad] which includes the indisputable nomen cartouche of... Smenkhkare!


That was in 1998. The editor refers to delicate negotiations to arrange to have this material returned to Egypt, which I understand concluded with an agreement in 2001 that this would take place ( http://www.aesa-nw.org/goldencoffin.htm ). Has it been confirmed that Smenkhare's name has turned up with any of the material related to the coffin? The Volume 10 Number 3 Fall 1999 issue of KMT had an article on The Missing Coffin Trough from KV55 - did this shed any light on the matter?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's an article in KMT Summer 2001 written by Dennis Forbes.
He states:
Quote:
Despite persistent rumors to the contrary, this gold does not contain a whole or even partial cartouche with elements of the nomen "Smenkhare" present. Much reference has been made to an assertion that this (partial?) nomen survived on a piece of "wrapped up" gold foil associated with the KV55 coffin interior. Perhaps "folded up: is what actually was meant; but even if that is so, the gold retained in Cairo seems not to be where this alleged cartouche is purported to have been seen.


There are quite a few photographs with the article that show some of these pieces of gold foil. There are a couple of places where clearly the cartouche has been cut out, but no mention of the name Smenkhare apparently.

The name of Smenkhare is mentioned in Tutankhamen's tomb I think. I have to look that up again...
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may already know about this, but it is probably worth mentioning again. There is a website that has a searchable database of all the finds in Tutankhamen's tomb:
http://www.ashmol.ox.ac.uk/gri/carter/

And here's a wooden box of Smenkhare:
http://www.ashmol.ox.ac.uk/gri/carter/001k.html
Quote:
Lid bears hieratic text in black; knobs bear the cartouche of
Smenkh-Ka-Ra and Nefer-Neferu-aten-mer-na-en Aten; top rail an
incised inscription painted and filled in with greenish blue.
(For texts see further note.)

_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Meritaten
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 97
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again, Anneke! It was a bit of a forlorn hope (if Smenkhare's name had been found on the newly turned-up bands, I figure it would have been trumpeted all over the place), but it was an intriguing reference. Amazing what rumours circulate in academia - and once they take wings, they can be difficult to pin down.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kmt_sesh
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 7099
Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Amazing what rumours circulate in academia - and once they take wings, they can be difficult to pin down.


It's even more amazing the amount of disinformation one finds on the internet, if one is not careful. Smenkhare is still one of the front-runners for the occupant of KV55, and one of the most logical choices. I myself favor him for that tomb.

That's an interesting link you provided, Meritaten. Anyone must be careful when citing Budge. The man was a genius, a true Egyptophile, and a prolific writer on all things Egyptian, and no one can deny any of that. But we must be very careful when we cite him. For one thing, Budge wrote his body of work a very long time ago, and much of it is considered quite outdated. For another, Budge was notorious for allowing little if any editing and critiquing of his literature before going to press. That alone should set off the warning bells.

The scarab to which Budge refers is interesting itself, but the first cartouche is definitely not the prenomen of Tutankhamun. It's all wrong for that. The second cartouche is more mysterious, though. It could definitely be read as Merit-re, but it could also be read as Meritaten, if the glyph of the sun disk is meant to represent the Aten. Scarabs can be very difficult to use for the sake of inscriptional evidence, but they're fascinating to study.
_________________


Visit my blog!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:

That's an interesting link you provided, Meritaten. Anyone must be careful when citing Budge. The man was a genius, a true Egyptophile, and a prolific writer on all things Egyptian, and no one can deny any of that. But we must be very careful when we cite him. For one thing, Budge wrote his body of work a very long time ago, and much of it is considered quite outdated. For another, Budge was notorious for allowing little if any editing and critiquing of his literature before going to press. That alone should set off the warning bells.

The scarab to which Budge refers is interesting itself, but the first cartouche is definitely not the prenomen of Tutankhamun. It's all wrong for that. The second cartouche is more mysterious, though. It could definitely be read as Merit-re, but it could also be read as Meritaten, if the glyph of the sun disk is meant to represent the Aten. Scarabs can be very difficult to use for the sake of inscriptional evidence, but they're fascinating to study.


What link are you talking about?
I don't see any translations by Budge on the ones above.

What scarab is this? I have heard of an inscription that supposedly mentions that the mother of Tutankhamen is named Merit-Re.

Dennis Forbes actually wrote a paper putting forth the theory that Tutankhamen was the son of Smenkhare and Meritaten. In this case Meritaten would have been named Merit-Re after some return to orthodoxy?
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Meritaten
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 97
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Kmt-Sesh is referring to the one of the KMT letters and answers that appeared in the Reader's Forum, Anneke - I referred to this page:

http://www.egyptology.com/kmt/summer98/forum.html

It's an on-line extract from Kmt, Volume 9. Number2. Summer 1998. The piece on the left hand column, 'Further on Tut's Tomb', is a letter and editorial answer that refers to Budge and the Merit-re scarab. I was referring to the next letter on the page in my post, 'Back to the Ole KV55 Occupant Debate', in which a reader wrote in disputing an article by George Johnson, and the editorial comment made reference to rumours circulating in Egyptological circles that Smenkhare's nomen had appeared on the new materials. Since then, it has become clear that this is not the case.

I absolutely agree with you on internet rumour, Kmt-Sesh - it's speeded up the Chinese whispers process to lightening pace, and half-remembered theories are often now repeated as facts! In this case, however, the source is the Kmt Journal, and was originally not on line, but the rather in the letters column of what is a pretty reputable publication. If I'd read something of that nature in an online forum, I'd be requesting cites and would be immediately skeptical of unnamed sources. However, given that Johnson trusted these anonymous reports, as apparently did the Editor, I was willing to give it a bit more leeway (mistakenly, as it now turns out!).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Very Happy
Not one of my brighter moments I guess Rolling Eyes

I was actually trying to list all the supposed parent for Tutankhamen. It's a ridiculously long list..
Amenhotep III and Tiye
Amenhotep III and Sitamen
Amenhotep III and minor wife named Meritra
Akhenaten and Nefertiti
Akhenaten and Kiya (most favored one?)
Akhenaten and Sitamen
Akhenaten and minor wife Meritra
Smenkhare and Meritaten.

There's really nothing in the tomb of Tut either that gives a clue. There's the box from Smenkhare and a writing palette, but those are hardly loving memories of your parents.
I think there are no items belonging to Nefertiti or Kiya with him right?

Do we know who really are mentioned in KV55?
There's mention of Tiye, and mention of Akhenaten (on bricks)
There's some indication that the canopic jars may have belonged to Kiya and or Meritaten? Who else?
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kmt_sesh
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 7099
Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's the very link. Thanks, Meritaten. I was caught up in that letter and am once again guilty of steering us away from the issue. I simply get a chuckle out of modern people who put too much faith in Budge.

anneke wrote:
Quote:
In this case Meritaten would have been named Merit-Re after some return to orthodoxy?


As for the inscription to which I referred, I was simply pointing out that the glyphs could have been read either as "Merit-Re" or "Meritaten." That little glyph of the sun could be read as r' or could be taken as an idiogram for itn. But that's probably a stretch on my part, I must admit. It just struck me as interesting. But you're theory is probably more than just possible. Following the death of Akhenaten and his religion, more than a few people with "aten" in their names were probably in a hurry to change them, the better not to be stuck with the stigma of the heretic king.
_________________


Visit my blog!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sesen
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 1048
Location: Luxor

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Incidentally the reconstructed gold foil coffin is now on display at the Cairo Museum. I'm not sure if this is the wooden trough mentioned in the kmt article.
There is also a alabaster head from a canopic jar that belonged to the burial of the inlaid coffin. Inscriptions have been erased but uniquely the 4 (meaning the 4 were found but only one displayed?)was surmounted by the sign for heaven.
Little remains of the coffin, it was wooden with gold foil overlay. The face plate is lost/removed, but gold foil remains on the hands. As the foil has gone from the face it looks like the wood is a very dark type, like the bust of Tiye in Yew wood.
Inscriptions in gold relief on the base of the feet (no chance of a photo in here). Beautiful decoration of what looks like lapis, turquoise and cornelian. The cartouche has been deeply chiselled out but some text remains.

I have read of Smenkhare and Meritatens cartouches being inscribed on the wall of MeryRe II's Amarna tomb. These now seem to be all but gone as I could see not see them clearly enough to be sure. It seems though there are 19th century copies. The Amarna tombs are very damaged - not surprisingly.

This quote surprised me: Editors comment from MeritAtens link

Quote:
Besides, it is well attested that Tut's mother was Mutnofret, not a Meritre.

Shocked
_________________
Priestess of Hathor, Superior of the Harem of Min, dedicated to Maat, beloved of Seshat and Nekhbet.
I enter as a hawk, I come out as a benu bird in the morning.-- Pert em-Hru, ch. 13
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kmt_sesh
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 7099
Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Incidentally the reconstructed gold foil coffin is now on display at the Cairo Museum. I'm not sure if this is the wooden trough mentioned in the kmt article.


That same coffin from the article was restored and I'm sure that's the one you saw. Evidently there were a lot of gold-foiled objects in that tomb, including the remains of a shrine similar to Tut's that was found by Davies and his team when they opened the tomb. Unfortunately Davies was about as far from professional as one can be, and he paid the shrine no mind. People were walking all over it as they moved in and out of the tomb, trampling it to bits and destroying it completely. There were reports of gold flakes wafting through the air as Davies and his team worked in KV55.

Quote:
Inscriptions have been erased but uniquely the 4 (meaning the 4 were found but only one displayed?)was surmounted by the sign for heaven.


I'm not sure what you mean by this but it caught my attention. What's up with this "4," again?

Quote:
Besides, it is well attested that Tut's mother was Mutnofret, not a Meritre.


I'm not sure I would put much stock in this. The only prominent Mutnofret I can think of in the 18th Dynasty was a minor wife of Tuthmosis I and the mother of Tuthmosis II, around 180 years before Tut was even born.
_________________


Visit my blog!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sesen wrote:

There is also a alabaster head from a canopic jar that belonged to the burial of the inlaid coffin. Inscriptions have been erased but uniquely the 4 (meaning the 4 were found but only one displayed?)was surmounted by the sign for heaven.

One of these four is displayed in the New York's Metropolitan Museum
Here's a link to canopic jar

What do you mean by the sign for heaven that surmounted the jar? What's the significance? (Sorry if I'm slow on the uptake here Smile )

Sesen wrote:
I have read of Smenkhare and Meritatens cartouches being inscribed on the wall of MeryRe II's Amarna tomb. These now seem to be all but gone as I could see not see them clearly enough to be sure. It seems though there are 19th century copies. The Amarna tombs are very damaged - not surprisingly.

All I've ever seen of this is a line drawing dating to the 19th century. Too bad so much has deteriorated even during the last 100 years.

There is another interesting sculptor's study showing Akhenaten and most likely Smenkhare. Here's the image:
http://www.egyptarchive.co.uk/html/cairo_museum_35.html

Sesen wrote:
This quote surprised me: Editors comment from MeritAtens link

Quote:
Besides, it is well attested that Tut's mother was Mutnofret, not a Meritre.

Shocked

I agree: Shocked Where does the editor get that come from?
That opens the door to speculation that Mutnofret, (Nefertiti's sister maybe?), may have joined the royal harem?? And gave birth to Tutankhamen? Then she would have followed her son on the throne??

For as far as I know, there's absolutely no evidence for this at all.
I guess I should not take this seriously at all, but it's kinda fun to speculate... Laughing
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wrote:
That opens the door to speculation that Mutnofret, (Nefertiti's sister maybe?), may have joined the royal harem?? And gave birth to Tutankhamen? Then she would have followed her son on the throne??

For as far as I know, there's absolutely no evidence for this at all.
I guess I should not take this seriously at all, but it's kinda fun to speculate...


OOPS! Sorry about that. Nefertiti's sister was called Mutnodjemet, not Mutnofret. No idea who this Mutnofret would be...
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kmt_sesh
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 7099
Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
One of these four is displayed in the New York's Metropolitan Museum
Here's a link to canopic jar

What do you mean by the sign for heaven that surmounted the jar? What's the significance?


So "the 4" has nothing to do with the individual jar to which Sesen was referring? I was trying to read it as "the 4" with the sign for heaven overhead. I'm wondering about that, too. I'm so confused. Shocked
_________________


Visit my blog!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Diorite
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 210
Location: Land of Make-Believe

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There is another interesting sculptor's study showing Akhenaten and most likely Smenkhare. Here's the image:
http://www.egyptarchive.co.uk/html/cairo_museum_35.html


It's in marble. Very Happy Just in case you wondered.

Diorite
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Sphinx All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group