Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Where is the nose of the Great Sfinx?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Sphinx
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Sesen
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 1048
Location: Luxor

PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:
Quote:
Is it not the same what opinions the Muslims have of the Copts? I've read that in Egypt the Copts--the last vestige of history's greatest ancient civilization--are very much considered a second-class people. I've always found that to be the epitome of irony.

From my experience, yes the Muslims are not particularily complimentary about the Copts either. Wink Tit for tat, really! The Copts certainly are more outnumbered - something like only 10% of the population. My impression was that anyone not Muslim is pretty second class. Confused

The tattoo is a simple Coptic cross. I asked one man who spoke English and he said it was to be on the right arm or wrist. Some have both their wrist and forearm done.
I asked why the 'right', he replied 'we want to be on the right hand of God'. I found this intriguing as the ancient Egyptians also seemed to favour the right side, as in the title 'Fanbearer on the right of the king'. Even today in our culture we have 'righthand man' etc.

On the Coptic language, I can't help I'm afraid. The ones I spoke to, spoke Arabic, the same as anyone else.
I heard the formal language being used in the church we visited - its said to have a lot of Greek influence and sounds quite beautiful. This was a Copt church in Minya and was built over and around the cave they believe the holy family sheltered in during their escape from Herod. They are very richly decorated, very ornate. Like a Catholic church. Some lovely paintings of the holy family, saints and a dragon being slayed. Couldn't help but remind me of the ancient scenes of the snake Apep being speared, similar iconography.
_________________
Priestess of Hathor, Superior of the Harem of Min, dedicated to Maat, beloved of Seshat and Nekhbet.
I enter as a hawk, I come out as a benu bird in the morning.-- Pert em-Hru, ch. 13
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kmt_sesh
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 7099
Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The tattoo is a simple Coptic cross.


Would that be our friend the ankh, then? If you examine elaborately ornate Coptic crosses, you can still see the much more ancient ankh within the design.

Quote:
I heard the formal language being used in the church we visited - its said to have a lot of Greek influence and sounds quite beautiful.


I would love to see a Coptic mass spoken in their liturgical language. Really, all the written Coptic tongue is, is late ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic script with Greek letters thrown in to provide vowels. It's kind of a mix, I believe, of Demotic and Greek. One of the ways linguists and philologists helped us to figure out the sounds of ancient Egyptian was to strip Greek influences out of the Coptic language and closely examine the remains of that tongue.
_________________


Visit my blog!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
isisinacrisis
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 2228
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you mean second class, you mean like, lower class? It's a shame really that they are treated this way. But it must have been interesting to meet some. I know two Coptic guys who work on stalls selling Egyptian papyrus, statues and those lovely glass bottles. They are very friendly-and they even try and haggle with you on the prices of their products, and one of them even gave me a free bookmark on my first visit, seeing as I showed great enthusiasm for his stall! One of them told me he was a Copt when he said he wouldn't be working on his stall during their Christmas, which is in January-like the Greek orthodox church. I think their Easter is the same as the Greek one too.

I've heard that with the language, some words that smacked of the more pagan beliefs of the ancient Egyptians (such as the word for the afterlife or heaven, I think it was) were replaced with Greek ones which didn't have such connotations.
I never knew that the ancient Egyptians were the first ones to place importance on the right hand though (does that mean they considered the left hand 'evil' like they did more recent history-I mean, my mum's friend who is left handed was forced to write with her right hand when she was little...)

Quote:
Some lovely paintings of the holy family, saints and a dragon being slayed. Couldn't help but remind me of the ancient scenes of the snake Apep being speared, similar iconography.


That's the sort of thing I meant about the Coptics using some of their ancestors beliefs (despite them destroying their temples and so on). I've heard that not only is the dragon slaying remeniscent of Apep slaying, but also that the icons of St George slaying the dragon are taken from Horus slaying Set (and there are apparently some roman artifacts that shows the god, falcon headed and all-but with Roman armour, slaying a beast on horseback.)

I know a website where you can download some mp3s of Coptic hymns. (for free-don't worry, it's legal! Wink ) They really are beautiful. Once I find the link I'll post it here. I also saw a website of someone who went to Egypt and took pictures of a Coptic festival and of the people worshipping.
_________________
High-Priestess of Isis, Hereditary Princess, Lady of Philae, Favourite of Osiris, the Lord of Abydos, Daughter of Horus, Chantress of Bastet, Superior of the Kitty Litter Wink
<---Check out my av-I made it myself Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kmt_sesh
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 7099
Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
When you mean second class, you mean like, lower class?


Yes, that's what I meant. Sorry for the confusion. I guess "second-class" is a yank way of putting it?

Quote:
I never knew that the ancient Egyptians were the first ones to place importance on the right hand though


I can't say much about that myself, but I've always been tangentially interested in the Egyptian's clear favoring of the left side of the body in statuary--that is, how the left foot is always seen stepping forward. One of the most common beliefs is that this was a convention borne of the militaristic culture of the Egyptians, reflecting how a soldier would step forward first with his left foot to present his shield in his left hand.

That's a bunch of bullflop, I think. Egypt had a very powerful militia or military in many periods of its dynastic history and was not afraid to use it, but calling the entire civilization "militaristic" is too much of a stretch.

Thomas Mudloff has a much better theory, as far as I'm concerned. It is clear how much importance Egypt placed on the heart, the seat of intelligence and emotion and the repository of one's life story. Mudloff believes the artistic emphasis on the left side of the body is akin to the concept of "leading with the heart." That seems Egyptian to me. Wink

Quote:
I've heard that not only is the dragon slaying remeniscent of Apep slaying, but also that the icons of St George slaying the dragon are taken from Horus slaying Set


This is one of those examples religious scholars and art historians use of how ancient Egypt influenced later religions like Judaism and, of course, Christianity. I don't know if it's true, but it's not hard to believe.

Quote:
I know a website where you can download some mp3s of Coptic hymns.


Now that sounds interesting. Do post that link if you can find it.
_________________


Visit my blog!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
isisinacrisis
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 2228
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the pic of Horus slaying a crocodile that I mentioned. Just to prove I wasn't making it up...


And here's the site where the coptic hymns are...
[img]http://www.davidensemble.com/downloads.htm[/img]
_________________
High-Priestess of Isis, Hereditary Princess, Lady of Philae, Favourite of Osiris, the Lord of Abydos, Daughter of Horus, Chantress of Bastet, Superior of the Kitty Litter Wink
<---Check out my av-I made it myself Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
isisinacrisis
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 2228
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

D'oh! I messed up the link...
http://www.davidensemble.com/downloads.htm

And it's my birthday today. Yay! #Bday
_________________
High-Priestess of Isis, Hereditary Princess, Lady of Philae, Favourite of Osiris, the Lord of Abydos, Daughter of Horus, Chantress of Bastet, Superior of the Kitty Litter Wink
<---Check out my av-I made it myself Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kevin
Admin/Admun/Admen
Admin/Admun/Admen


Joined: 04 Jun 2003
Posts: 1110
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

#Birthday
_________________
"Man fears Time - but Time fears the pyramids" - Old Egyptian saying
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
kmt_sesh
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 7099
Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Happy birthday, isisinacrisis!

#Bday :rainbowafro: blob8 blob7 blob8 blob7 blob8 blob7 blob8 blob7 blob8 blob7 :rainbowafro: #Bday

Now go out and buy yourself something lavishly Egyptian to celebrate!

By the way, you forgot to tell us how old you are.
_________________


Visit my blog!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Smartie
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 02 Oct 2005
Posts: 250
Location: U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who knows what happened to his..nose.
Maybe he did a Michael Jackson thing, trying to decrease it's size, to the point that it simply fell off Laughing

On a serious nose-I mean note, I think it was probably destroyed, whether by time, or by man.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Robson
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1009
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There exists an interesting account written by historian Muhammad al-Husayni Taqi al-Din al-Maqrizi (died CE 1442), in a book called al-Mawa`iz wa al-i`tibar fi dhikr al-khitat wa al-athar (G. Wien, ed., 1913). In vol. 2, page 157 of the Wien edition, al-Maqrizi states that the face, specifically the nose and ears, were demolished in 1378 by a Sufi from the khanqah of Sa`id al-Su`ada named Sa'im al-dahr. The reason for the vandalism, according to al-Maqrizi, was to "remedy some religious errors:" at that time some Egyptians were still burning milk-thistle (shuka`a) and safflower (badhaward) at the foot of the Sphinx while murmuring a verse 63 times in hope that their wishes would be fulfilled. "From the time of this disfigurement also," al-Maqrizi wrote, "the sand has invaded the cultivated land of Giza, and the people attribute this to the disfigurement of Abul-Hol [i.e., the Sphinx]."

Source: http://www.catchpenny.org/nose.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
isisinacrisis
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 2228
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never heard of this-I've heard of the idea that a Muslim cleric destroyed the sphinx for religious reasons (I've heard either because it was a pagan symbol, or because the Muslims find figurative/humanised representations of god disrespectful, or both) but I've not heard of the idea that the people at the time were still giving offerings to the sphinx-performing what is in essence a pagan ritual with ancient roots. I didn't know people in Egypt still did stuck to the ancient ways long after the country became almost completely Muslim...that's very interesting.
_________________
High-Priestess of Isis, Hereditary Princess, Lady of Philae, Favourite of Osiris, the Lord of Abydos, Daughter of Horus, Chantress of Bastet, Superior of the Kitty Litter Wink
<---Check out my av-I made it myself Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kmt_sesh
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 7099
Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The history of Egypt is very much intertwined with the modern peoples of Egypt. I once met a Sudanese professor who told me of some of his people's marriage customs. The Sudanese are of course the descendants of the Nubians and the Kush. Though devoutly Muslim, the professor assured me, his people nonetheless involve ancient Egypt rituals in their marriage ceremonies. Part of these rituals involve the River Nile, but I'm sad to say I can't remember any details (I should've been taking notes!). He was a delightful gentleman.

A very good friend of mine, and a fellow docent at the Field, was born and raised in Egypt. The dialect of Arabic spoken in Egypt has numerous vestiges of the ancient language. My favorite example is the modern term ma-sekhmet. It's used in reference to anything chaotic or disorderly. Needles to say it derives from the ancient goddess Sekhmet, bringer of pestilence and disease. And a modern crude term for sex is something like nik, which comes from the ancient verb nk, referring to a sexual penetrative act (either against a man or woman).

And most relevant to your question about the mix of pagan and Muslim practices, I once attended a lecture given by an Egyptologist who spent a moment discussing this exact topic. A friend of his was an Egyptian who told him of his birth, as related to him by his own mom, a devout Muslim. This was probably back in the late 1940s or early '50s. Early in her marriage she and her husband desired a child but she could not get pregnant regardless of what she did. As a religious woman she first consulted the local Islamic cleric, but that achieved nothing. Next she consulted a Coptic priest, but again nothing happened. Finally she went to the ruins of a temple built for Hathor and prayed to the ancient goddess and--you guessed it--soon became pregnant. This lady always felt guilty for turning to a pagan goddess, but it "worked." Very Happy

I don't think you can find a major religion on this earth without a lot of pagan connections. Judaism, Christianity, Islam...they all have the traits of the ancient pagan religions that inspired them in their formative stages.
_________________


Visit my blog!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
isisinacrisis
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 2228
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's fascinating. To see that these ancient practises still continue to this day! I did remember someone on the board-one of the Egyptian members, Dampwater I think, who mentioned ancient Egyptian words still in use in Arabic today (and not just in Coptic), but I didn't know they still used words like Sekhmet in their language. I really like the idea that along with all the monuments and tombs and treasures, the ancient customs have survived in Egypt for thousands of years-be it practical customs or work related ones (like ancient rural methods still used to farm) to more belief-related ones.
_________________
High-Priestess of Isis, Hereditary Princess, Lady of Philae, Favourite of Osiris, the Lord of Abydos, Daughter of Horus, Chantress of Bastet, Superior of the Kitty Litter Wink
<---Check out my av-I made it myself Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kmt_sesh
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 7099
Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is very interesting. It's the kind of thing about which I would like to learn a lot more but I don't know offhand of many books that deal with this subject.
_________________


Visit my blog!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sesen
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 1048
Location: Luxor

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:13 pm    Post subject: traditions Reply with quote

I read in Kent Weeks book 'The Lost Tomb' the other day that an evolved version of the Opet festival is still celebrated here.
A mosque was built within a section of Luxor Temple in honour of a local man Yusef Abu el-Haggag.
This 700 odd year old mosque is still there and apparently each year before Ramadan there is a huge celebration in memory of this man that lasts for 3 days.The festival culminates in a parade where a large boat is carried out from inside the mosque and paraded through Luxor on the sholders of men ( Very Happy sound familiar?!).
The route takes them around the temple and back. There is much singing and dancing, its quite a big deal. Amazing eh?

From what I've heard and seen the locals are still extraordinarily superstitous (not sure if thats really the right word, perhaps more 'traditional'). There are still village medicine men who practise ancient healing rituals and are influential indeed.
A couple of other things:
One does not enter a tomb when following a duck! Read this in Kent Weeks book and asked a friend who confirmed it.
Snakes must be completely annialated when killed so that it does not follow you for ever. Not a good thing to let happen Wink
There are loads more but I forget them at the moment.
_________________
Priestess of Hathor, Superior of the Harem of Min, dedicated to Maat, beloved of Seshat and Nekhbet.
I enter as a hawk, I come out as a benu bird in the morning.-- Pert em-Hru, ch. 13
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Sphinx All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 2 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group