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Montuhotep88
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correction: where I said "k3" and "k3w" in the last couple of posts, I meant "x3" and "x3w" (kha and khau)...
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking for and not finding many "-kaures".


I notice that there appear to be two Sekhemkares, though-- Amenemnat Sonbef and Amenemhat V. It would be rather irregular for a throne name to be repeated that quickly, especially within a dynasty. Any chance one of them was a Sekhemkaure instead?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
... I notice that there appear to be two Sekhemkares, though-- Amenemnat Sonbef and Amenemhat V. ...

Wikipedia - Sonbef
Quote:
... There is a debate between egyptologists on whether or not Sekhemkare Sonbef is the same king as Sekhemkare Amenemhat V, 4th ruler of the 13th dynasty. Indeed, Sonbef called himself "Amenemhat Sonbef"; this can be a double name, but can also be a filiation Son of Amenemhat Sonbef, which both Ryholt and Baker see as evidence that Sonbef was a son of Amenemhat IV and a brother of Sekhemre Khutawy Sobekhotep, the founder of the 13th dynasty.[3][4] Thus, they see Sonbef and Amenemhat V as two different rulers, an opinion also shared by Jürgen von Beckerath.[3][4][6][7] Ryholt and Baker further posit that Sonbef's and Amenemhat's rules were separated by the ephemeral reign of Nerikare, while von Beckerath believes it was Sekhemre Khutawy Pantjeny who reigned between the two.[6][7]

At the opposite Detlef Franke and Stephen Quirke believe that Amenemhat V and Sonbef are one and the same person.[8][9] Franke and others regard "Amenemhat Sonbef" as a double name. Indeed, double naming was common in Egypt and especially in the late 12th and 13th Dynasty.[10] ...

Looking at the testimonies to the name in the original source ...



(Newberry : Note on a New Egyptian King of the XIIIth Dynasty. - In: PSBA 21. - 1899. - p. 282 - 283)

... and the somewhat constructed looking insert of "z3" by Beckerath ...



(Beckerath : Handbuch der Ägyptischen Königsnamen, 1999, pp. 88 - 89)

... I personally tend rather to the conception of Quirke and Franke.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Montuhotep88
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I was just reading Quirke's "In the Name of the King: on Late Middle Kingdom Cylinders" (in Timelines: Studies in Honor of Manfred Bietak), in which he makes a good case against "filiative" naming. I had accepted the concept of filiative naming as a matter of course before that, but his reasoning does seem sound.

Still, though-- I'm looking for a "...kaure" and while I can't absolutely rule out Menkaure (dyn. 4), it doesn't look at all likely to me based on the majority of the other kings noted nearby (and it would beg the question of "why Menkaure and not Khufu and Khafre?")...[/i]
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
Yes, I was just reading Quirke's "In the Name of the King: on Late Middle Kingdom Cylinders" (in Timelines: Studies in Honor of Manfred Bietak), in which he makes a good case against "filiative" naming. I had accepted the concept of filiative naming as a matter of course before that, but his reasoning does seem sound. ...

If it is not only a double name, then one has to explain how there are several identical personal names in the non-royal realm? All with the same lineage as the king?
Quote:
... Still, though-- I'm looking for a "...kaure" ...

Mn-kaw-Ra / Nfr-kaw-Ra / Nb-kaw-Ra / Ḫaj-kaw-Ra / Mrj-kaw-Ra (maybe not complete, from Hannig, Handwörterbuch I, 2006).
Quote:
... and while I can't absolutely rule out Menkaure (dyn. 4), it doesn't look at all likely to me based on the majority of the other kings noted nearby (and it would beg the question of "why Menkaure and not Khufu and Khafre?")...[/i]

Is not the question why specifically these kings and not the others much more interesting? An explanation attempt (also for the absence of the builders of the Giza pyramids) offers Dietrich Wildung:

Zur Frühgeschichte des Amun-Tempels von Karnak. - In: MDAIK 25. - 1969. - pp. 212 - 219.

Aufbau und Zweckbestimmung der Königsliste von Karnak. - In: GM 9. - 1974. - pp. 41 - 48.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Mn-kaw-Ra / Nfr-kaw-Ra / Nb-kaw-Ra / Ḫaj-kaw-Ra / Mrj-kaw-Ra (maybe not complete, from Hannig, Handwörterbuch I, 2006).


While I can't be truly certain what's in or not in a partly-destroyed cartouche, it does not appear likely to be any of those, at least to me.

(All place numbers are from Lepsius 1853)

Mn-kaw-Ra: From Sneferu's existence in place 2, a 4th-dynasty king cannot be ruled out. However, it is notable that there is no pre-12th dynasty king in any of the observable cartouches on the right side of the room; further, the earlier kings on the left side are grouped together (places 1-5, 9-13, 14-16) whereas ...-kaw-ra's neighbors are both Second Intermediate Period, so it would be reasonable to hypothesize that ...-kaw-ra is SIP as well.

Nfr-kaw-Ra: 8th Dynasty, so doubtful for same reasons as Mn-kaw-Ra.

Nb-kaw-Ra: Heracleopolitan king, unlikely to be represented at Karnak

Mrj-kaw-Ra: Mr(j)-kaw-re (a Sobekhotep) is already listed in place 42.

I am unfamiliar with Ḫaj-kaw-Ra. (?) If Kha-kaw-ra Senusret (III) is meant, d'Avennes placed him in place 32, although he is the only witness so placing him. This is possible, though of course it leaves place 32 open. (This may be the most reasonable solution. d'Avennes is the only source placing anything in 32.)

Thank you for the citations (Zur Frühgeschichte... and Aufbau und...); I will try to track them down.

Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe of interest ...

Nicolas Grimal : Les Ancêtres de Karnak. - In: Comptes Rendus des Séances de l'Académie des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres 154(1). - 2010. - pp. 343 - 370.

There is also a book, edited by the Louvre ...

Élisabeth Delange : Trois monuments égyptiens du Nouvel Empire - La Chambre des Ancêtres, les Annales de Thoutmosis III et le décor de(s) palais de Séthi Ier. - Paris : Louvre Éd., 2015. - ISBN : 9782916142067. - 256 p., 700 ill. - Pages 17 - 114 : LA CHAMBRE DES ANCETRES DE THOUTMOSIS III.

I have not been able to see it yet, but it is available in the libraries here in Berlin ...

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
... edited by the Louvre ...

Élisabeth Delange : Trois monuments égyptiens du Nouvel Empire - La Chambre des Ancêtres, les Annales de Thoutmosis III et le décor de(s) palais de Séthi Ier. - Paris : Louvre Éd., 2015. - ISBN : 9782916142067. - 256 p., 700 ill. - Pages 17 - 114 : Marc Etienne - LA CHAMBRE DES ANCETRES DE THOUTMOSIS III.

I have not been able to see it yet, ...

Today I have looked at it and I have to say, if it were also available in German or at least in English, I would buy it immediately...

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nerts. Ich spreche (lese) kein Französisch! I'll hope for a translation as well.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had written an entire post on something I had discovered/theorized about the Turin King List-- something that I thought could make a real difference in its interpretation. However, before hitting "Submit" I went back to double-check a fact-- and discovered that the result brought the whole elegantly-argued structure crashing down. Rats! Facts can be stubborn, pesky things...
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmmm... trying to check my copies here and ran into something puzzling. In Turin entry 7.24 (Gardiner's VI.24), the reading I've seen in a couple of places is (sxm-kA-ra [wAD-tAwy] sbk-Htp)|, but I'm puzzled by the "sxm". The sign as transliterated appears to be a combination of Y8 and N35 ("n"). Is this an error, and if so, is the error present in the source hieratic (which I unfortunately cannot read)?


example https://pharaoh.se/royal-canon-of-turin-kinglist#column-7
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
... In Turin entry 7.24 (Gardiner's VI.24), the reading I've seen in a couple of places is (sxm-kA-ra [wAD-tAwy] sbk-Htp)|, but I'm puzzled by the "sxm". The sign as transliterated appears to be a combination of Y8 and N35 ("n"). Is this an error, and if so, is the error present in the source hieratic (which I unfortunately cannot read)?

example https://pharaoh.se/royal-canon-of-turin-kinglist#column-7

I also do not read Hieratic, but helpful in the identification of individual hieroglyphics is ...

Georg Möller : Hieratische Paläographie - Die ägyptische Buchschrift in ihrer Entwicklung von der fünften Dynastie bis zur römischen Kaiserzeit. - Leipzig : Hinrichs, 1909-1912. - [2nd, improved edition. - Osnabrück, 1965].

The examles for the writings of " śḫm " are in Bd I. S. 23-76, no 449 on page 42.

Although there are two examples with a hint of a horizontal line in the lower area (penultimate column), it is not in the sign in Col. VI.14 of the Canon. So, it looks more like "misspelled / accident"? Ultimately, one would probably have to look at the original in Turin ...?

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
... The examles for the writings of " śḫm " are in [url=http://www.***/lang/Moeller/Moeller-I-23-76.pdf]Bd I. S. 23-76[/url], no 449 on page 42. ...

See also no 539 on page 51.
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