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Which Deity is this?
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Fof
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 11:46 pm    Post subject: Which Deity is this? Reply with quote

This relief is located on one of the columns at the front of the Abydos temple.
It depicts Ramesses II and a Deity.
I have been given IDs on other forums (fora?), ranging from totally stupid to possibles.


One suggestion was Osiris, based on the crown, and that his hieroglyphs appear below the right foot of Ramesses. That last "fact" I am not confident about. I did find an image of Ptah-Sokar-Osiris, with what appears to be the similar crown. though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ptah-Sokar-Osiris_Figure_MET_LC-21_9_1_EGDP025129.jpg
BUT!
I consistently pointed out that where the Deity's name should be, there appears to be an anomalous glyph next to the R8 glyph (divinity), and this fact was consistently ignored.
I did manage to identify the glyph as Gardiner C18, Tjanen, modified by the inclusion of a sceptre.
I realise the first part of the name has been lost, but can anyone, please, tell me Who it is and How you determined that?

Tia
Fof
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irt-akhu
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was taught that the name always appears around/near the head. If so, isn't that [C12] Amun? However, isn't the depiction of a deity with the ram's horn atef typically Osiris?
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irt-akhu
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like Ramses II used to like to hang out with Ptah-Tatenen:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Ny_Carlsberg_Glyptothek_-_Ausstellungssaal_1-2008-17-11.jpg
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Fof
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see C12, which is squatting with both knees raised.
This, like C18, is kneeling, with both knees on the ground.
I had seen this picture of Ptah-Tatenan statue previously.
If the deity on the column, is Ptah-Tatenan, surely he would be bearing his sceptre?
Please excuse my thoughts & ideas, if they are way off. It is just my lack of knowledge, coupled with a desire to know as much as I can.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 11:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Which Deity is this? Reply with quote

Fof wrote:
... relief is located on one of the columns at the front of the Abydos temple. It depicts Ramesses II and a Deity. ...



... next to the R8 glyph (divinity) ... the glyph ... Gardiner C18, Tjanen ...


Your assumption is absolutely correct. That determinative - C 18 - identifies the deity as Tatenen (in this temple we find the earliest evidence for the writing of the name of the god using only the ideogram C 18 ; see Schloegel, Der Gott Tatenen, 1980, p.166).

In addition Gardiner N 35 "Waterline" (double?) is preserved. The spelling of the god's name with N 35 at the end has been documented since the 12th Dynasty (Schloegl, Der Gott Tatenen - Nach Texten und Bildern des Neuen Reiches, 1980, p.158). The space above N 35 is sufficient for the missing hieroglyphs.

The iconography of the anthropomorphic figure of the god corresponds to the classic description for Tatenen: double ostrich feather with a sun disk and aries horns on a wig, gods beard, apron.

Quote:
... suggestion was Osiris, based on the crown, and that his hieroglyphs appear below the right foot of Ramesses. ...

This is a dedication inscription that refers to the temple as a whole.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Fof
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Lutz, Sahib, Sir hello2
Thank you. More than you can possibly imagine.
I took this 98/99. No digital cameras, no laptops/tablets, no WiFi. I will use locals, if I feel they know what they are talking about, for info. However, this was only about 14 months after the bombing at Hatshpsut's Temple. To get there, from Luxor, I had to join a minibus, part of a convoy of minibuses, with armed escort. Along the way minibuses and their escorts peeled of.
At Abydos, the ONLY locals were sat, maybe 1/2 doz, and seemed to know nothing, apart from E£xx to take photos, no flash, but ...maybe...E£ he not see. Started to walk towards the early dynasty tombs. No way! Several big, heavily armed military types, made it VERY plain, I should just turn around. OK!
Over the years, I have, using the notes taken at the time, books (including Budge) and the internet managed to satisfy my interest in 99% of the photos. This one, though, just bugged me. All I ever had was a note "Column, front, Ramesses II with ?? (Seti??)"
I can now, finally put it to bed. The links, with what you wrote, caused me to realise something. The C18 + R8 pair are determinatives, not part of the name (excuse phraseology and correct me if I'm wrong, please).
They identifying the deity as a melding of Tjanen (aka Tatenen), who is associated with the primal mound, and Ptah (a creator god), giving Ptah-Tatenen.
In the relief he is portrayed as Tatenen, rather than Ptah-Tatenen.
Now, please shoot me down in flames, if you have to. Wink Very Happy [/i]
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irt-akhu
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your photo disappeared. yes C18 is a determinative, but R8 nTr is a triliteral phonogram or an ideogram. Gardiner does show an exception where it is a determinative in Geb's name, though.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fof wrote:
... I took this 98/99. ... 14 months after the bombing at Hatshpsut's Temple. To get there, from Luxor, I had to join a minibus, part of a convoy of minibuses, with armed escort. ... At Abydos ... Started to walk towards the early dynasty tombs. No way! Several big, heavily armed military types, made it VERY plain, I should just turn around. OK! ...

Then you might be interested in how I spent my 40th birthday ...

Abydos - Umm el-Qaab - Grab des Den

... and the last day of my 30th :

Abydos - Tempel des Osiris

Abydos - Kenotaph-Komplex Ahmose I .

Fof wrote:
... Over the years, I have, using the notes taken at the time, books (including Budge) and the internet managed to satisfy my interest in 99% of the photos. ...

Very helpful and at least a good starting point for such research ...

" The Topographical Bibliography of Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphic Texts, Statues, Reliefs, and Paintings "

by Bertha Porter and Rosalind L.B. Moss (" P&M "). Searchable PDFs of the current print version, vols. 1-7.

Fof wrote:
... The C18 + R8 pair are determinatives, not part of the name (excuse phraseology and correct me if I'm wrong, please).
They identifying the deity as a melding of Tjanen (aka Tatenen) ...

I would sign it like this. A certain residual risk that it could be "Ptah-Tatenen" remains. However, the available space above the head next to the cartouches is probably not enough for such a long name (?).

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

irt-akhu wrote:
Your photo disappeared. ...

I still can see it ... Both, in the original post by " Fof " and in my quote from it.

irt-akhu wrote:
... yes C18 is a determinative, but R8 nTr is a triliteral phonogram or an ideogram. Gardiner does show an exception where it is a determinative in Geb's name, though.

One and the same hieroglyph can be used as ideogram, determinative or phonogram. See for example Gardiner E 23 - Lying Lion.

Gardiner-Zeichenliste (Englisch: Gardiner’s Sign-list)
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Switched computers and the images are back. Weird
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irt-akhu
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the glyph below C18 and R8, is it perhaps U36 to form Hm nTr?
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irt-akhu
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Way cool photos, Lutz. Thanks for posting.
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irt-akhu
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

irt-akhu wrote:
What is the glyph below C18 and R8, is it perhaps U36 to form Hm nTr?

Ooops. Must be O29 to form aA nTr, "great god"
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

irt-akhu wrote:
irt-akhu wrote:
What is the glyph below C18 and R8, is it perhaps U36 to form Hm nTr?

Ooops. Must be O29 to form aA nTr, "great god"

Yes ... C18 - R8 - O29 = " Tatenen, the great god ".
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