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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I mentioned in my post...

“No sun-disc rays with hands on them.”

Whenever I can think of scenes depicting the royals - this being in the context I am imagining, Akhenaten, Nefertiti and daughter/s - sacrificing ducks and undergoing water purifications seem counter intuitive to me. Not ‘Atenist’ as I think of scenes depicting the sun disc expressed under Akhenaten.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ayrton wrote:
... “No sun-disc rays with hands on them.” ...

Akhenaten Sacrificing a Duck (Accession: 1985.328.2)
No sun-disc rays? Are we talking about the same talatat?

Ayrton wrote:
... Whenever I can think of scenes depicting the royals - this being in the context I am imagining, Akhenaten, Nefertiti and daughter/s - sacrificing ducks and undergoing water purifications seem counter intuitive to me. ...

On the representations of the various Aton temples in the tombs in amarna, we often find altars overloaded with sacrifices, including poultry. The royal couple usually dedicating the sacrifice in front of them.

Smith / Redford, The Akhenaten Temple Project 1 - Initial Discoveries, 1976, page 74 :



The duty of ritual purity before the service in the temple is documented throughout the Egyptian history (written and pictorial). There is no reason that was not valid during the Amarna time, how exactly the scene with Kija occupied ...
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Ayrton wrote:
... “No sun-disc rays with hands on them.” ...

Akhenaten Sacrificing a Duck (Accession: 1985.328.2)
No sun-disc rays? Are we talking about the same talatat?
J
Ayrton wrote:
... Whenever I can think of scenes depicting the royals - this being in the context I am imagining, Akhenaten, Nefertiti and daughter/s - sacrificing ducks and undergoing water purifications seem counter intuitive to me. ...

On the representations of the various Aton temples in the tombs in amarna, we often find altars overloaded with sacrifices, including poultry. The royal couple usually dedicating the sacrifice in front of them.

Smith / Redford, The Akhenaten Temple Project 1 - Initial Discoveries, 1976, page 74 :



The duty of ritual purity before the service in the temple is documented throughout the Egyptian history (written and pictorial). There is no reason that was not valid during the Amarna time, how exactly the scene with Kija occupied ...


Regards the duck, my mistake! Are we sure it is Kiya with him?


Regards the water purification, are there other Akhetaten Period scenes showing water purification rituals etc. in which the royal family is involved?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ayrton wrote:
... Are we sure it is Kiya with him? ...

Do not just watch pictures ... Also read text ("Curatorial Interpretation") :
Quote:
... Now a match between the Museum’s block and one in the Ny Carlsberg Museum in Copenhagen (AEIN 1776) has been made revealing a female figure grasping a duck and extending it towards Akhenaten. The contours of the second duck and one of the Aten rays extend across the two blocks making the join certain. (Figure 1)

The Copenhagen block has for some time been recognized as a depiction of Kiya. The inscription names Meritaten and, indeed, the bare skull of the princes with an elaborate side-lock is recognizable. However, the inscription is carved over another earlier inscription where the titulary of Akhenaten’s second wife Kiya can be read, and the side-lock has clearly been carved out from the Nubian wig that is the characteristic headgear of Kiya. ...


Ayrton wrote:
... Regards the water purification, are there other Akhetaten Period scenes showing water purification rituals etc. in which the royal family is involved?

Maybe, see ... Cathie Spieser : Offrandes et purification à l'époque amarnienne. - [Monographies Reine Élisabeth - MRE 14]. - Turnhout : Brepols, 2010. - ISBN : 9782503534756. - 213 p.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Ayrton wrote:
... Are we sure it is Kiya with him? ...

Do not just watch pictures ... Also read text ("Curatorial Interpretation") :
Quote:
... Now a match between the Museum’s block and one in the Ny Carlsberg Museum in Copenhagen (AEIN 1776) has been made revealing a female figure grasping a duck and extending it towards Akhenaten. The contours of the second duck and one of the Aten rays extend across the two blocks making the join certain. (Figure 1)

The Copenhagen block has for some time been recognized as a depiction of Kiya. The inscription names Meritaten and, indeed, the bare skull of the princes with an elaborate side-lock is recognizable. However, the inscription is carved over another earlier inscription where the titulary of Akhenaten’s second wife Kiya can be read, and the side-lock has clearly been carved out from the Nubian wig that is the characteristic headgear of Kiya. ...


Ayrton wrote:
... Regards the water purification, are there other Akhetaten Period scenes showing water purification rituals etc. in which the royal family is involved?

Maybe, see ... Cathie Spieser : Offrandes et purification à l'époque amarnienne. - [Monographies Reine Élisabeth - MRE 14]. - Turnhout : Brepols, 2010. - ISBN : 9782503534756. - 213 p.


All good. So I can be (reasonably) sure it is Kiya. Thanks for that. A box ticked for me. I really find it hard to see Kiya - if not Nefertiti - taking such. Prominent place in the worship of Aten..but maybe I will see...

I don’t think I will be reading that French piece you mention. But, I will see if I can raise it and do a Google translate...
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Afraid that French work is beyond my finance and my knowledge of French, lol.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aylward M. Blackman : A Study of the Liturgy Celebrated in the Temple of the Aton, at El-Amarna. - In: Bibliothèque de l'École des Hautes Études - BEHE sc. hist. et philol. - 234. - 1922. - pp. 505-527.

Re-published in ...

Gods, Priests and Men - Studies in the Religion of Pharaonic Egypt. - London : Kegan, 1998. - Page 248 :


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Aylward M. Blackman : A Study of the Liturgy Celebrated in the Temple of the Aton, at El-Amarna. - In: Bibliothèque de l'École des Hautes Études - BEHE sc. hist. et philol. - 234. - 1922. - pp. 505-527.

Re-published in ...

Gods, Priests and Men - Studies in the Religion of Pharaonic Egypt. - London : Kegan, 1998. - Page 248 :



I wonder why there is ‘no doubt’ about water purification occurring before they approached the altar?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The scene with Kiya undergoing (what seems) a water purification ritual, I only ever see in isolation. Is it part of a larger existing scene?
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Aylward M. Blackman : A Study of the Liturgy Celebrated in the Temple of the Aton, at El-Amarna. - In: Bibliothèque de l'École des Hautes Études - BEHE sc. hist. et philol. - 234. - 1922. - pp. 505-527.

Re-published in ...

Gods, Priests and Men - Studies in the Religion of Pharaonic Egypt. - London : Kegan, 1998. - Page 248 :



I wonder why there is ‘no doubt’ about water purification occurring before they approached the altar?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ayrton wrote:
The scene with Kiya undergoing (what seems) a water purification ritual, I only ever see in isolation. Is it part of a larger existing scene?

The block comes from a private collection (Schimmel Collection), not from a documented official dig. The locality is not really clear ("Probably from ..."). To my knowledge, it has not yet been possible to assign it to a specific building in Amarna or to reconstruct the whole scene.

Ayrton wrote:
I wonder why there is ‘no doubt’ about water purification occurring before they approached the altar?

Because there is not the slightest indication of any reason whatsoever, that during the Amarna time this ritual, which has been consistently used since the Old Kingdom, was abandoned ...
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Ayrton wrote:
The scene with Kiya undergoing (what seems) a water purification ritual, I only ever see in isolation. Is it part of a larger existing scene?

The block comes from a private collection (Schimmel Collection), not from a documented official dig. The locality is not really clear ("Probably from ..."). To my knowledge, it has not yet been possible to assign it to a specific building in Amarna or to reconstruct the whole scene.

Ayrton wrote:
I wonder why there is ‘no doubt’ about water purification occurring before they approached the altar?

Because there is not the slightest indication of any reason whatsoever, that during the Amarna time this ritual, which has been consistently used since the Old Kingdom, was abandoned ...


Doe this mean that there continued to be scenes depicted showing the royals undergoing this purification ritual during the Akhetaten Period?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ayrton wrote:
Doe this mean that there continued to be scenes depicted showing the royals undergoing this purification ritual during the Akhetaten Period?

I see no reason why not. The fact that this ritual was also performed during the Amarna time is proved not at least by the block in question ...
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Ayrton wrote:
Doe this mean that there continued to be scenes depicted showing the royals undergoing this purification ritual during the Akhetaten Period?

I see no reason why not. The fact that this ritual was also performed during the Amarna time is proved not at least by the block in question ...


For me,though, it is would not seem unreasonable to ask if this is the only known depiction/record during the Akhetaten Period. And how early in that period (or late!) might impact on its meaning in the context of the time. Both provenance and the ‘implications’ of Kiya being in the scene seem relevant t9 me.

Also, getting back to the duck scene: does it seen peculiar to you at all (or ‘potentially’ peculiar) to have a secondary wife so prominent in an Aten scene where one might (I tend to!) suspect Nefertiti should be? Isn’t there a certain duality involving Akhenaten and Nefertiti, which Kiya seems to be intruding on in the duck scene...and maybe even in the water ritual scene?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The duality of Akhenaten and Nefertiti is just one modern interpretation. The concept of duality itself is undermined by the many times the pair are not depicted as equals, or are in the presence of at least 1 daughter.

What is consistent with the rest of Egyptian history is that unrelated queens are shown separately with the king, never together. I say unrelated because mother and daughter queens are shown together e.g. Amenhotep III with Tiye and Sitamun.

The existence of Kiya in offering scenes is a disruption to the popular image of Akhenaten and Nefertiti, but like so many things related to the king the evidence is fighting against over a hundred years of theories and suppositions.

Kiya seems ephemeral because she had her monuments recarved and taken over by Meritaten, a bit like Tutankhamun himself before the discovery of his tomb (the vast majority of his monuments were usurped by Ay or Horemheb).
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