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KV62 West Wall Niche Question
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:

While ancient words have been compiled into a lexicon to facilitate grammatical translation, contextual meaning and intent of a costruct (phrase/passage) is not always to be understood as literally written


I'll draw attention to this now closed thread http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=7681

While not specifically about the pyramids, your posts are arguing from the same false position as that of cladking, in that we, that is everybody except cladking, can not know the true meaning of the Pyramid Texts, and all those texts that have evolved from them. Enough is enough, and I'm not going to waste my time arguing against this fantasy, unless of course some actual evidence is put forward, but I'm not holding my breath on that happening.
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maat
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had read the thread by cladking and thought it waa nicely passionate.
I don't think that I'm superior to the "experts". I would have had nothing to to study without their excellent work. That does not make them infallible as we all can be mistaken.
In this case, they missed some fundamental information. Even Newton did not know what Einstein came to reveal. There is always something to be learned.

I already gave an example that you might have missed the post.
It demonstrates the oars and hours of night in KV62 as technical references.
It also shows how the two statues are involved and is easy to understand. Is there a reference to where it's already published? Is it already known?
I'll quote myself for you to find the topic. The reference is not hot-linked.

maat wrote:

Let me try to show one example...Go to the topic...
[Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Pharaohs and Queens -> KV62 Sentinel Statues Functions Considered]
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That you refer to experts, presumably Egyptologists, as "experts", shows a certain contempt that is all too common for those who either don't have much real knowledge, or have a fantasy to peddle and need to create an aura of suspicion around the experts who can rip the fantasy to shreds.

Lutz pointed out that the two guardian statues represent, wearing the khat, the ka of the dead king, with the statue wearing the nemes being the king reborn as Ra Khepri. I pointed out that the flesh of the statues is black to represent rebirth. Sometimes this is expressed as fertility, but it's still re-birth. What has not been pointed out yet is that the statue of the ka of the dead king is to the west and the statue of the re-born king to the east. The Sun sets [dies] in the west and rises [re-born] in the east.

I would suggest that the eleven oars represent five to power the solar barge on each side, and the eleventh as a rudder. They do not represent in any way the twelve hours of the Amduat, not least because there are only eleven oars, but the twelve hour, that you contend is an [hour zero], is not at all. You make a mistake in thinking that as the Sun rises at end of the hour, then that the hour is a beginning. The new dawn starts at the end of the hour with a depiction of Khepri pushing the solar disk into the horizon, this is the last act of the hour. However, I can see why you would make this mistake, but if any hour were an [hour zero] it would be the sixth hour, the hour when the dead Ra fuses with Osiris, and is reborn at that point, the remaining six hours being the continuation of his journey to the new dawn. So the sixth hour is the crucial hour, and it is within the sixth hour that the events if the "Enigmatic" texts take place.

It is really only the west wall of the burial chamber that contains anything of the Amduat, were we see twelve solar baboons, and it could be nine. The scene does not even contain any spells, just the names of the baboons and the five gods above them. It's as if the person responsible for KV62 had thought that, [Well, we don't have space for anything but the very start of the journey, so you'll have to fight your way through by yourself, good luck]. The oars are like shabtis in that they are there for magical use on an invisible magical barge.
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maat
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon, I put the word expert in ruotes because it is subjective (means different things to different people in different circumstances). I am not condescending. All experts are not equal and expertise can be relative. I used Newton as example because he was expert without equal for centuries. His expertise are not less worthy of praise today but his expertise has been exceeded. Expertise is not omniscience.
Each reference in the tomb is complex in that each can involve several aspects that are each valid in different contexts.
Aspects of the statues that suggest and involve myth are valid as you noted. The statues also direct traffic into the burial chamber. There is a mythical aspect, a technical aspect and more that needs lengthy explanation. So, I limit the statues here to their function to direct traffic.
The 11 oars represent ten row oars and one rudder as you observe. This different aspect of the reference has other involvements.
I think that you misunderstand my hour zero refrence.
The cycle of hours begins count at zero to end of the cycle at hour twelve.
Today's time notation still shows the concept of simultaneous twelve and zero hour.
Consider 12:00 represents the end of 12 hours when count starts or again starts at zero.
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maat
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In technical aspect, Khepri informs that the count of time begins on the horizon where is the demarcator between twelve and zero. This is a negative inclusion.
Another negative inclusion is in hour 9. Why is the baboon not named as you say?

The burial chamber is or is in the Amduat where the twelve hours are effective as positional references. The myth is metaphor.

Is it to be believed that there was not time and resoures to flawlessly prepare the king's tomb despite the amount of gold found in the tomb?

Consider if an official would have risked honor, reputation and future opportunity to be entrusted to work to prepare another high level burial and tomb.

Consider why a positional reference system would be included.
Magic?
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These are your unique ideas on the Amduat and the function of the guardian statues, and they do not correspond to what is known...

"Negative inclusions", well, it's fine to come up with such a concept, but another thing to explain what you mean. There is nothing "negative" about the ninth hour, either during it's course on the transition from the eight hour and to the tenth hour. The ninth hour is in fact an hour of moving forward from defeating Apopis and journeys through what could be seen as discomforting caverns in the previous hours after the fusion of Ra and Osiris in the sixth hour. Wepwawet takes a prominent place at the head of the procession, opening the way of course, and for the first time we see the solar barge not being pulled along, or moving by unseen forces, but being rowed. The twelve rowers are not on the barge, but in front, probably depicted so as there would not be space to fit them on the barge along with Ra and attendant gods. All the beings in this hour are also depicted with new clothes, so we have an hour of consolidation, renewal of purpose and full steam ahead. There are no baboons, named or un-named, in this hour.

"Magic?" The entire tomb is a magic box
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maat
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
These are your unique ideas on the Amduat and the function of the guardian statues, and they do not correspond to what is known...


Yes. The understandings are my own from observations and study. They are apparently different than what others know at this time as often occurs with new information that others do not yet recognize.

Respected surgeons were also once those that did not wash their hands and resisted new ideas to do so. What is known can be imperfect and recognition can be slow.

Ikon wrote:
"Magic?" The entire tomb is a magic box


The entire tomb is a box of expressed metaphors, not magic.

Consider that wireless communication would seem like magic to a primitive people that have no experience with such things.

Early Egyptology deemed magical things that were unfamiliar. The "magical" positions now should be reconsidered with the greater information of today.

Your description of the ninth hour sincerely amazes me because your apparent familiarity with the myth (better than my own) seems to me that you are better positioned to more easily recognize the involved references.

The myth is informative. You have information.

Consider that the Anubis jackal in the treasury informed an observer to look and listen. Think.

I respect your skepticism about negative inclusions as you do not yet have practical familiarity with such references. Look at the west wall in the burial chamber (KV62) and consider the myth (the ninth hour).

Magic (as a consideration) hinders you from other information.
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hm....

So, let me get this straight. You are saying that if anybody thinks that the ancient Egyptians believed in and practised magic, heka, then that is a hindrance to gaining a "true" understanding, an understanding that you have, and nobody else. This, I'll point out again, is exactly the same position held by cladking in regard to the Pyramid Texts, texts that he says only he can understand, even though he cannot on his own admission read hieroglyphs.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm trying to inform you that the only 'magic' practiced by the ancient Egyptians was intelligent deception.
The 'magic' that protects the burial is the visitor's belief that the mystical mythical aspects are actually real.

I just happen to be correct.
Would you not have to consider and verify merits of the same information if it came from any other source?
You would not believe that an airplane was a magic thing if several engineers told you so. Would you? No.

You would study and consider the matter for yourself. Or, you could repeat like in days before antisceptic practices
when new surgeons followed their respected peers who scoffed at the idea to at least wash their hands before operations.

My point is that some information was missed. There is more available information than you recognize to be considered.
You should consider all the information.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think you have the slightest clue as to what the purpose of all the elements in the tomb are for. Who is "deceived" by the shabtis? Who is even going to wander into the tomb to be "deceived"? None of the magic is to protect against living people, so tomb robbers had no superstitious fear of entering, only of being caught and being impaled.

What is the tomb other than a place to store a dead body? do you even know? where is your evidence to show that what you propose is real? where is your evidence to say that they believed in the physical resurrection of the body? what are you using as sources? can you quote anybody other than yourself to back up in any way what you say.

And finally, why are you posting such outlandish nonsense on this forum, which may be quiet, but is certainly not the forum for unsupported fantasies.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
This, I'll point out again, is exactly the same position held by cladking in regard to the Pyramid Texts, texts that he says only he can understand, even though he cannot on his own admission read hieroglyphs.


If by "same position" you mean that you had not previously encountered or considered a position before you heard it anew, then yes. New information is not new if it is generally known.

I don't know cladking's position and won't defend it but also would not scoff at it even if I might disagree.

You might come to find that ancient Egypt is much more complex than you seem to recognize at this time.

Information and references are contextually sensitive such that what is informed by a reference in one context informs something different in another context.
This can produce different understandings.

The BOD informs about this concept in text that notes the different expressed (forms) of Ra.
I don't have the book at hand right now but it is in the opening sections of [Faulkner].
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The part that bothers me is the "context" you are citing appears to be within the various English translations of the Book of the Dead and other texts, and that is mighty thin ice to skate upon. If you could provide convincing evidence of the context referring to the actual original Egyptian, we might be getting somewhere. Any conclusions you draw from the translations automatically incorporate the knowledge, decisions, experience, and possible errors of the translator-- and religious concepts are notoriously difficult to render in ordinary language (any language).
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
I don't think you have the slightest clue as to what the purpose of all the elements in the tomb are for.

You are right. Not all.

Ikon wrote:
Who is "deceived" by the shabtis? Who is even going to wander into the tomb to be "deceived"?

Those who do not know and refuse to learn.

Ikon wrote:
And finally, why are you posting such outlandish nonsense on this forum, which may be quiet, but is certainly not the forum for unsupported fantasies.


I try to avoid agreement with a group when flaws are obvious. Unaware surgeons once thought it was an outlandish idea to wash their hands to keep their patients from dying. They set the standards, taught and were the source of knowledge. To agree with them was popularly right even in their misunderstandings.

I post to make known that information has been missed. The current knowledge is based on incomplete information, some misunderstandings and to inform there is more to be known.

I am not telling what to find but to consider more carefully the evidence that is already had. This might seem outlandish but maybe someone will find the purpose of all the other elements that I don't know.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
Those who do not know and refuse to learn.


Who does this reference, us today, or, in the case of KV62, ancient Egyptians 3,400 years ago. Your wording strongly suggests that you think the tomb, and by extension all others, was designed to deceive us today. I'll ask again, who in ancient times would have gone into that or any other tomb and needed to be deceived. What is the purpose of this "deception".

If, as you contend, there is no magic in the tomb, why do the shabti have a spell written on them to animate them to go about their designated purpose. Why is the sah surrounded by layer upon layer of wrappings that have magic spells for each part of the body, and why are so many magical amulets placed in the wrappings. Why are the internal and external surfaces of all three coffins and the outside of the sarcophagus covered with magic spells. Why are the shrines covered in magic, and I include supernatural powers in the word magic. Aye, in the opening of the mouth ceremony is performing a magical ritual. We see various gods, magical supernatural beings, greeting the dead king. Osiris, Isis, Anubis and others are not metaphors for someone or something else, they are to be taken at face value. If you think not, and that seems to be the case, then what do we see if not the gods.

You seem puzzled by the west wall of the tomb, as if it has some deeper meaning, yet it is in fact very plain and without any magic spells, or texts that can have any deeper meaning. We have a list of names of gods and twelve baboons, all named except one on the bottom register. There is nothing here of interest as it really is plain to see that with no room for anything but the most cursory rendition of the Amduat, or any other text, they have made do with the opening scene, and I suspect have used twelve baboons instead of the more usual nine in order to cover as much wall space as possible. If they had used nine, the proportions would be wrong on that wall. Look at the wall and think about it.

I had thought to place here a list of my sources, but you would just say that all those mentioned would, according to you, be wrong, wouldn't you....
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
The part that bothers me is the "context" you are citing appears to be within the various English translations of the Book of the Dead and other texts, and that is mighty thin ice to skate upon. If you could provide convincing evidence of the context referring to the actual original Egyptian, we might be getting somewhere. Any conclusions you draw from the translations automatically incorporate the knowledge, decisions, experience, and possible errors of the translator-- and religious concepts are notoriously difficult to render in ordinary language (any language).


Context means the place, location, siuation or conditions in which a thing (idea, reference...) occurs, is found or recognized as being involved. A reference (that can be a text, idea, even a suggestion from a text) can inform differently in different occurences (even also in one occurence).

I think I understand your concern that meanings and nuance involved in interpretations can seriously affect what is understood or intended. I am aware and have encountered interpretation in which I suspect a different word might be more sensitive to express what I suspect was the intent. But nuance is not always easy to convey. I don't read hieroglyphics beyond an elementary familiarity. So, I acknowledge that I do not read at all. I rely on translated texts and where I disagree, I defer unless I have a firm basis to demonstrate a difference.
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