Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

KV62 West Wall Niche Question
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Pyramids, Tombs, & Monuments
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
maat
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 18 Jun 2019
Posts: 371

PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My reply to Montu was incomplete as I accidentally pressed 'submit'.
I will complete the reply later.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maat
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 18 Jun 2019
Posts: 371

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
maat wrote:
Those who do not know and refuse to learn.


Who does this reference, us today, or, in the case of KV62, ancient Egyptians 3,400 years ago. Your wording strongly suggests that you think the tomb, and by extension all others, was designed to deceive us today.
...
I had thought to place here a list of my sources, but you would just say that all those mentioned would, according to you, be wrong, wouldn't you....


I was just about to log off but do not want to leave off with a misunderstanding.

There is no substantial difference between you, me, us today and the ancient Egyptians in their designs to secure a 'tomb' that was planned to endure for countless thousands of years. They obviously considered threats. We are not less or more human than they. We have access to different resources to enable diffent solutions.

As for a list of references, I do not disparage anybody to think I'm superior in my knowledge. I did not fly off to Egypt and spend the countless hundreds of work-years to personally discover, document, prove and disprove all that has come to now be known today. I would know nothing about Egypt without the work of others.

I learn from published work like most others. That does not make them all correct. Archaeology and Egyptology are sciences (disciplines of learning). We learn from accuracies and also from mistakes in the process. I observed a fundamental oversight, not because I want to be right or for others to be mistaken. It is a fundamental error that is shaping erroneous premises and conclusions.

Anyone can be mistaken about something. Lutz has in this forum pointed out when I've been mistaken. I had to reconsider my position and whether to revise or retract it. It happens.

Also, don't get frustrated as you consider the tonbs. KV62 seems simplest to me and I have over five years invested since 2013 to understand it. References are complexly related and complexly involved. They can drive you mad if you think there is something simple at hand.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maat
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 18 Jun 2019
Posts: 371

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ninth hour reference at the west wall is one of the simpler references.
The myth and mural work together to yield information. Consider it in context of the chamber. it is informative.

More importantly, set it aside if it becomes frustrating and it can be. They employed some of the best minds on earth to plan that tomb. How much talent would a piece of the gold mask have purchased? It is not simplistic and when it is understood, their intelligence is amazing even now.

Happy New Year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maat
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 18 Jun 2019
Posts: 371

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
The part that bothers me is the "context" you are citing appears to be within the various English translations of the Book of the Dead and other texts, and that is mighty thin ice to skate upon. If you could provide convincing evidence of the context referring to the actual original Egyptian, we might be getting somewhere. Any conclusions you draw from the translations automatically incorporate the knowledge, decisions, experience, and possible errors of the translator-- and religious concepts are notoriously difficult to render in ordinary language (any language).


I agree about possible errors in that metaphors might be mistaken and that nuance might be missed. I trust that the linguists translate as truly as they are able because I cannot (without immersing myself into study of the written language). I suspect and respect that it can take years to gain proficiency to read the writing. There is no end to discussion of symbols and meanings and understanding of how to best interpret.

How would you interpret (ir nb w) with determinative oval?
I would like competent people to look into my observations because
hieroglyphs (and in one case cuneiform) are involved and I do not read them.
Getting to them is a process to be learned.
I read it as 'see all lords' (as spoken), a command.

You want something original, Egyptian and context sensitive?
Look in KV62 (burial chamber) to the north wall, left (west end) section of the mural. Identify the mummy with the red 'X'.
I will explain it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
irt-akhu
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 28 Nov 2019
Posts: 109

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
I read it as 'see all lords' (as spoken), a command.

Wouldn't that be m3(3) nbw nb?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ikon
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 392

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
The ninth hour reference at the west wall is one of the simpler references.
The myth and mural work together to yield information. Consider it in context of the chamber. it is informative.

More importantly, set it aside if it becomes frustrating and it can be. They employed some of the best minds on earth to plan that tomb. How much talent would a piece of the gold mask have purchased? It is not simplistic and when it is understood, their intelligence is amazing even now.

Happy New Year.

And the ninth hour reference on the west wall is......
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ikon
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 392

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:


Also, don't get frustrated as you consider the tonbs. KV62 seems simplest to me and I have over five years invested since 2013 to understand it. References are complexly related and complexly involved. They can drive you mad if you think there is something simple at hand.

You can ignore my post above as I've seen what you have done. However, can you explain why you think the panel with the un-named baboon containing the niche for a magic brock represents the ninth hour. The reading order is from right to left, that is across all of the second register, and then again in the third and fourth register, putting the niche in the eleventh hour, that is if each baboon represents an hour, and I'm not certain that they do, for as I have mentioned, it is usually nine baboons shown in the first hour, and to fit in nine on that wall would be awkward. Now I'm not discount that the twelve baboons are representing the 12 hours, but that this is a consequence of design specific to the space they had, and not for religious reasons. In a previous post I have explained that there is nothing special about the ninth hour anyway.

However, let us say that the panel with the niche represents the eleventh hour, while an important hour in which both eyes are Ra are restored, all his remaining enemies are defeated and preparations made for the new dawn in the twelfth hour, there is nothing that can be used to argue for the mummy in KV62 to not be Tutankhamun. If, as you say, you have spent several years and written over 400 pages about this, could you spare at least a few paragraphs here to explain your reasoning...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maat
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 18 Jun 2019
Posts: 371

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

irt-akhu wrote:
maat wrote:
I read it as 'see all lords' (as spoken), a command.

Wouldn't that be m3(3) nbw nb?


I think you would better be able to assess this than I can. I might be mistaken.
I found the symbols sometime in 2013-2014 and only looked into meaning because I was finding symbols and thought I was mistaken in my observations. I had picked up [Collier, Mark., and Bill Manley. How to Read Egyptian Hieroglyphs: A Step-by-step Guide to Teach Yourself. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1998.] to get a simple understanding.

As I noted, I am not proficient in reading although I conceptually understand what is involved as far as word structures, bilateral and ideogrammatic representations. But I defer.

The specific symbols I found were Gardiner (V30, D4 and Z3) arranged vertically with a horizontal oval to right side of the set. I did a crude comparison with symbols in the book and came up with (see lord many {3 strokes}) and the determinative oval pertains to mouth. So, I understand that to be "as spoken".

I don't know enough to do a bilateral translation. It would require me to gain more familiarity and that would require some time. I was immersed in other aspects of ancient Egypt.

I'm sure that your understanding of the symbols would be more comprehensive than my own.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maat
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 18 Jun 2019
Posts: 371

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
...the niche represents the eleventh hour...

I agree with you...about the directional order as you read the grid across.
It has been a long while since I found the directional references for the hours.
I haven't had to think about it. There are references in the tomb that inform
about how to read the grid from top left downward. The ninth hour is in location
of the 11th as you read it. This is an example of what I mean when I note that
references are complex and complexly involved. Both hours are significant in that register.

By the way, I am not near to trying to explain the mummy. My notes to explain it involve
400 recent pages of approximately 5000. The references are many and you won't even begin
to read them before building familiarity . This is another reason why I don't dump all I have.
You won't understand it in parts.
You now recognize the ninth hour reference at the west wall. It is significant and informative.

I will only mention without explamation that the senet board on the cartouche chest in the Treasury is one of the elements involved to identify how to read sequence of the hours.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maat
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 18 Jun 2019
Posts: 371

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon, I meant to say that you won't be able to read the references if you don't gain familiarity.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maat
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 18 Jun 2019
Posts: 371

PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon, your account about the eleventh hour is new to me. It obviously involves the oars
and positional hour references. I recognize it as suggestive guidance. There are many suggestive, informative and confirmatory guidance references involved.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ikon
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 392

PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:

You now recognize the ninth hour reference at the west wall. It is significant and informative..

Eh, no....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ikon
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 392

PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
Ikon, your account about the eleventh hour is new to me. It obviously involves the oars
and positional hour references. I recognize it as suggestive guidance. There are many suggestive, informative and confirmatory guidance references involved.

If you have been studying this for years and written many hundreds of pages about it, it's odd that you are unfamiliar with the eleventh hour, and odder yet that you are convinced it "obviously involves oars". There is not a single oar in sight, or mentioned in the text, in this hour. For while the solar barge was powered by rowers in the ninth hour for the first time since entering the Duat, it then reverts to be towed, or in the eleventh hour, moving by magical force. In front of the barge are not rowers or pullers, but twelve deities carrying aloft the giant snake "World-encircler". This is the element of preparation for the twelve hour that I mentioned in my previous post, for in that hour Ra emerges from the snake as Khepri.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ikon
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 392

PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
You want something original, Egyptian and context sensitive?
Look in KV62 (burial chamber) to the north wall, left (west end) section of the mural. Identify the mummy with the red 'X'.
I will explain it.

Will your explanation run counter to it being Osiris, and the name of the god is by the mummy, and that it has the facial features of Tutankhamun in order to show that with the greeting of the king with the god, the king merges, as Ra, with Osiris. The red "X" is a "stole" that is sometimes found in depictions of Osiris, and on the outer wrapping of the mummies of mortals, sometimes small and just below the mask, sometimes large. The precise meaning or purpose of the "stole" I do not know, but as it is not part of the everyday iconography of Osiris then I doubt it is of huge importance, and not an "X marks the spot". It is one of those items, like the sash he sometimes wears, as do royal women, that is familiar but not fully understood, unless you know...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maat
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 18 Jun 2019
Posts: 371

PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
maat wrote:

You now recognize the ninth hour reference at the west wall. It is significant and informative..

Eh, no....

Sorry. I thought that you recognized the sequence of progression (that I used) to establish the ninth hour in the panel with the niche.

As, I noted, I have not considered the counting pattern since having found it and doing so was far from simple. It involves a series of references.

My lack of familiarity with the eleventh hour is in great part because I have been following technical references and did not approach the matter from the pure perspective of myths.
As I recognized the more direct involvement of myths used to inform and provide guidance, I necesarily read about aspects that I encountered.

This is is why I noted that I think you seem to be better positioned to (more quickly) recognize references than I was.
Now that I have developed familiarity with the system of references, I more easily recognize certain references and involvements.

You have apparently spent time becoming familiar with the myths and mythical aspects. It could be asked, why are you not aware of the technical aspects like the use of hours as
positional references? We each started at diferent ends of the elephant.

Also, there can be different points of entry to learn about the system because references are complexly involved. Find one and it can lead you to another. So, one does not have to start with knowing every element that is involved but they will be encountered even if they might not be recognized in one expected form.

This is an instructive aspect of the metaphor of Ra having different forms. It is not about the spiritual god. It is about variety of presentations, perspectives and understandings.
I recognize new aspects even now. It is obvious to me that there were a great many people involved in development of the system.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Pyramids, Tombs, & Monuments All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 5 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group