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KV62 West Wall Niche Question
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maat
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
There is not a single oar in sight

Context of the reference is the burial chamber.
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:


You have apparently spent time becoming familiar with the myths and mythical aspects. It could be asked, why are you not aware of the technical aspects like the use of hours as
positional references? We each started at diferent ends of the elephant.

How many people in the world, other than you, know about these "positional references" in the context of the hours in various "Books of the Dead".

Why can I not find any mention of "positional references" in my library or in any online source. Who has determined, other than you, that "positional references" are a "technical aspect". What are they exactly, do they in any form come under this phrase from Daniel Werning, "The representation of space, time, and event sequence".

Do you have any intention of explaining anything in plain language, and in particular giving a clear example of any element of the tomb that is not what we think it to be, but is a "deception", and explaining the nature of the "deception" and who is meant to be "deceived". I've asked you this before in slightly different words about Tutankhamun, the KV62 mummy, but you dodged the question.
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
Ikon wrote:
There is not a single oar in sight

Context of the reference is the burial chamber.

The context of my reply was to you stating that the eleventh hour of the Amduat has a clear reference to oars, and it does not, and neither is there any known connection between the oars in the KV62 burial chamber and the eleventh hour, or any other specific hour.
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maat
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:

Will your explanation run counter to it being Osiris, and the name of the god is by the mummy, and that it has the facial features of Tutankhamun in order to show that with the greeting of the king with the god, the king merges, as Ra, with Osiris. The red "X" is a "stole" that is sometimes found in depictions of Osiris, and on the outer wrapping of the mummies of mortals, sometimes small and just below the mask, sometimes large.

You are telling me there is a red "X" thought to be a stole, and where it has been observed.

Ikon wrote:
The precise meaning or purpose...do not know, ...is not part of the everyday iconography of Osiris ... I doubt...importance...not an "X marks the spot". ...one of those items, like the sash he sometimes wears, as do royal women, ... familiar...not fully understood, ...

You are telling me the best guess is that it represents a sash but nobody really knows what it is for?
I asked to identify the mummy figure. Why do you bring up the "sash"? Identity?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
Ikon wrote:

Will your explanation run counter to it being Osiris, and the name of the god is by the mummy, and that it has the facial features of Tutankhamun in order to show that with the greeting of the king with the god, the king merges, as Ra, with Osiris. The red "X" is a "stole" that is sometimes found in depictions of Osiris, and on the outer wrapping of the mummies of mortals, sometimes small and just below the mask, sometimes large.

You are telling me there is a red "X" thought to be a stole, and where it has been observed.

Ikon wrote:
The precise meaning or purpose...do not know, ...is not part of the everyday iconography of Osiris ... I doubt...importance...not an "X marks the spot". ...one of those items, like the sash he sometimes wears, as do royal women, ... familiar...not fully understood, ...

You are telling me the best guess is that it represents a sash but nobody really knows what it is for?
I asked to identify the mummy figure. Why do you bring up the "sash"? Identity?

Anybody with an interest in ancient Egypt, even if they do not read hieroglyphs or know anything about KV62, unlikely, will recognize a mummiform figure with green skin, a ceremonial beard and wearing an Atef crown to be Osiris, it's Egyptology 101. But even a person with zero knowledge of ancient Egypt could have googled "KV62 north wall" or something similar, and been presented with an answer. Why did you even ask the question, and more importantly, why the hell did I bother giving an answer when there was a better than 50% chance of getting a bizarre acknowledgement....
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:

Ikon wrote:
The precise meaning or purpose...do not know, ...is not part of the everyday iconography of Osiris ... I doubt...importance...not an "X marks the spot". ...one of those items, like the sash he sometimes wears, as do royal women, ... familiar...not fully understood, ...

Btw, editing a poster's original message in the way you have in the quote box warrants an instant ban on most forums. It's fine to quote a part of a post, if you have done so in the right context, but to edit an entire post is a no no.
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maat
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:

Anybody with an interest in ancient Egypt, even if they do not read hieroglyphs or know anything about KV62, unlikely, will recognize a mummiform figure with green skin, a ceremonial beard and wearing an Atef crown to be Osiris, it's Egyptology 101. But even a person with zero knowledge of ancient Egypt could have googled "KV62 north wall" or something similar, and been presented with an answer. Why did you even ask the question, and more importantly, why the hell did I bother giving an answer when there was a better than 50% chance of getting a bizarre acknowledgement....


You repeatedly ask who the tomb is meant to decieve and I have replied, anybody who will not learn about it. The nature of the deception is to present ambiguous references that must be resolved. The female figure (north wall center) who holds two zigzag symbols is not offering water as some have intepreted. She offers options, choice symbols. You cannot choose if you do not know what are the options.

Google does not yet know.

Yes, the answers will seem bizarre when you have to grapple with reality instead of magical-mystery notions.

The tomb is not a set of answers on Google. It is a ret of challenges through which people have to think, not gods or spirits.
I will tell you the "X" mummy is Neith but will you know how and why?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After a tomb is sealed nobody is meant to enter it again, not even until the end of the universe. That they get robbed or reused is by the by as the contents of the tomb, including what is on the walls, is not for the benefit of intruders, and by benefit I mean that what the objects are and stand for are for the dead tomb owner alone. Therefore there is nobody to be deceived as nothing in the tomb is for the living to wander around gawking at. There is nothing about the tomb for any interloper to learn, and that is in the context of ancient Egyptian civilisation, not us in modern times where we use to tomb to learn about their culture, not it's purpose at all.

Therefore, for you to come up with this reply,
Quote:
You repeatedly ask who the tomb is meant to decieve and I have replied, anybody who will not learn about it

Is deliberately obscurantist, as is the manner in which you put forth your contention that the figure of Osiris is Neith. Your contention that Nut is not pouring a libation is simply you saying it is so without, as usual, providing a shred of evidence.

I have no problem grappling with reality, but you on the other hand have some serious issues with what is known of ancient Egypt, issues that put you beyond the bounds of reality and common sense.
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maat
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
maat wrote:

Ikon wrote:
The precise meaning or purpose...do not know, ...is not part of the everyday iconography of Osiris ... I doubt...importance...not an "X marks the spot". ...one of those items, like the sash he sometimes wears, as do royal women, ... familiar...not fully understood, ...

Btw, editing a poster's original message in the way you have in the quote box warrants an instant ban on most forums. It's fine to quote a part of a post, if you have done so in the right context, but to edit an entire post is a no no.


Guilty. I see in hindsight how the elipses might be mistaken as part of your original message.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
After a tomb is sealed nobody is meant to enter it again, not even until the end of the universe.

The planners should have posted larger signs and seals.
Ikon wrote:
That they get robbed or reused is by the by

You're saying that people could and did in fact enter tombs before end of the universe. That would include "modern" times. You don't believe the ancient planners would have foreseen, considered and guarded against such threats to the burial?

Ikon wrote:
as the contents of the tomb, including what is on the walls, is not for the benefit of intruders, and by benefit I mean that what the objects are and stand for are for the dead tomb owner alone.

You think they painted interesting pictures to keep the deceased distracted and entertained inside a dark room locked in stone with magic things to keep out the possible robber who might disturb the burial but will let the modern people in to study (which also disturbs a burial especially when the tomb is cleared)?

Ikon wrote:
Therefore there is nobody to be deceived as nothing in the tomb is for the living to wander around gawking at.

If nobody is to "wander around gawking" then what are "modern" people doing in museums and in the tombs today as they tour, visit, look, poke, peek, probe, scan and search for hidden chambers?

Were the Egyptians too busy playing with magic trinkets to consider that someone before the end of the universe might come along and enter the tomb for nefarious purpose?
Are the researchers looking for hidden chambers foolish because (as you seem to think) the Egyptians concealed nothing so that anything to be found was openly accessible in the tomb?
It can't be that you believe they hid things that you think researchers might find while you also claim there is nothng hidden to be found.
Yes, my findings and positions disagree with some of the status quo.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:

Yes, my findings and positions disagree with some of the status quo.

Your findings and positions do not disagree with some of the status quo, they are entirely at odds with the status quo and reality.

I think you know that your posts have no place in this forum, and that you are playing games here...
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

irt-akhu wrote:
maat wrote:
I read it as 'see all lords' (as spoken), a command.

Wouldn't that be m3(3) nbw nb?

maat wrote:
... Gardiner (V30, D4 and Z3) arranged vertically with a horizontal oval to right side ...




An epithet of the king, similar used as "Lord of the Two Lands", "Lord of the Crowns", etc. With "a horizontal oval" nobody can do anything ... Gardiner name, please.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
... I think you know that your posts have no place in this forum, and that you are playing games here...

Well, that took time ... But better late than never ?! Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
irt-akhu wrote:
maat wrote:
I read it as 'see all lords' (as spoken), a command.

Wouldn't that be m3(3) nbw nb?

maat wrote:
... Gardiner (V30, D4 and Z3) arranged vertically with a horizontal oval to right side ...




An epithet of the king, similar used as "Lord of the Two Lands", "Lord of the Crowns", etc. With "a horizontal oval" nobody can do anything ... Gardiner name, please.


Hello Lutz. Thank you for the reply. I put a request for the Collier's book at the library on the same day that I posted the the Gardiner numbers. I got those from Wikipedia. I had a 40 minute online constraint. That aside, I will get a reference for the oval as soon as I can. Irt-akhu and yours are the first light I've had about the symbols.
The order of symbols differs from the set I observed as ir occurs in the top position. I don't know if that makes a fundamental or minor difference. No promise on when but I do want to let you know what this is about. You might want to examine the source yourself or dismiss my observation if you don't find it compelling.
Regardless, thanks again for the information.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The appendix from Gardiner's book containing his sign list is available online as a pdf. As far as learning hieroglyphs, I think Prof Bob Brier's online lectures are much better than going through C&M (not really the best book), Allen or Hoch on one's own.
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