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maat
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
...
As an additional note, attention is paid to the wound to the YL, but the forensic examination of the boy in 2003 threw up a mystery. The hole to his upper left chest was caused by an axe or something similar, but the mummified skin had then been pulled back. Mummified skin is very fragile and would break into pieces when treated like this. What the forensic team suggest is that this injury was made very soon after mummification, or even while still undergoing the process. This raises the prospects of a serious breakdown in authority with royal mummies attacked while "still warm" in their tomb, or not yet buried.

Yes, as I considered also for YL, work on the bodies was likely after death and before skin lost pliability.
Attack while plausible seems irrational. Someone pulled aside pliable skin to attack the body with a weapon? Or, someone attacked a corpse with an open chest wound? They are considerations but it seems a waste of effort.
While the damage suggests violence and conflict, there in fact was none. All the damage was planned and constructed for a designed purpose. It's not mysterious, only complex.
The ancient Egyptians were not squeamish about using human corpses in their designs. It also offered people usefully meaningful purpose in death to be in a mission with the king for Egypt.
These mummies are at work in service. I will explain.
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
Ikon wrote:
I didn't say that the YL was kicked in the thorax by a horse, only that like the boy and Tiye she also had damage to her thorax, which will have been caused by robbers.

I agree and offered my apology for having noted in error that you did. I think you mistook my apology.
Also, thank you for clarifying the damage to each mummy. It was unclear to me earlier if you meant that EL had facial damage that I did not know.

Quote:

Tiye does not have any facial damage, only the YL, and that the wound has been packed shows that it occurred before death. If robbers had hacked into her face, why would they then pack out the wound, and in the impossible event that they did, why not also repair the damage to her thorax, top of head and ripped off right arm, and the damage to the other two mummies.

I agree that Tiye has no facial damage. I disagree that packing YL's wound was done while alive although it is possible. As you note about the boy's chest damage, work can have been done on the body after death and before mummification was completed or shortly after. This is no surprise to me. (Clinical experiment with mummification has found the skin to still be pliable for a time after dessication. I saw a documentary decades ago.)
EL is only a constructed reference to be regarded 'as if' Tiye. EL in a sense works to answer for Tiye so Tiye will not be in that position. It is a construct. I vill try to explain.

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Nobody has suggested that the YL had a chariot accident, that idea has been suggested for Tutankhamun due to his fractured legs. The injury to the YL is not a blow caused by falling, but by direct force, a horse's hoof or weapon. The boy probably died due to a fall because he has a fully dislocated right femur head and severe injuries to his pelvis.

Speculation that YL might have had a chariot accident exists as such things do. All considerations are not from official sources.

There seems to be a language problem here...
I'm not saying that the wound to the face of the YL was packed while she was still alive, I mean that the packing in the wound indicates that the wound was not post mortem, ie, it had occurred before mummification while she was still alive, and then the packing inserted during mummification.

It's not disputed that the EL is Queen Tiye, and this is proven by the DNA evidence, but then you think that all these Amarna mummies are "substitutes". You certainly weave an odd and convoluted tale, and it would be great to see your evidence, but that's not going to happen any time soon, is it...
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
irt-akhu wrote:
KV62, yes, it's Tut: parents were KV55 (Smenkhare) and KV35YL (Meritaten)
KV21A = Ankhesenamun. KV21B = Nefertiti

Interesting and who is Meritaten's father? Sisters?

I had asked who is Meritaten's father and added sisters also because the answers are well-known as she is the daughter of Akhenaten and Nefertiti.
Except the tomb of Tutankhamun informs that she was Akhenaten's sister and Nefertiti's sister as well as she was Nefertiti's eldest daughter. Meritaten was fathered by Amenhotep III.
The tomb reveals a sordid story. Amenhotep III reached into the bed of his son and it seems to have been planned to achieve a unity.

I noted earlier that the gold coffin honors the mother of Tutankhamun but it more so marks that it was through Meritaten that the coregency and separate reigns of Amenhotep III and Akhenaten were unified into the person of Tutankhamun. The act to unify is emphasized as the gold coffin represents the mother and by implication the father but Tutankhamun who represents the unity seems like a byproduct.

I've pondered why it was not a son of Nefertiti who became king? I Know she had no known sons. The only answer that makes sense to me is that she already had Amenhotep III's child which perhaps was a violation to intermingle reigns and succession. I don't know. Still, Meritaten is indicated as being conceived between the two houses of father and son.

The unification seems to be a reason the lineage is so greatly emphasized with the construct of three coffins and so much gold. Unification seems to have been pursued as a perfection.
I don't see how DNA can ultimately untangle that lineage. It is truly twisted.
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

12. About reading the tomb. The two black lifesize statues that stood in the antechamber of Tutankhamun's tomb demonstrated a simple concept. They were painted black to show and inform that the antechamber is in the realm of night. This aspect of the statues is a simple construct. Things appear dark in the night.
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

13. Reading KV35(JC)
I asked earlier, why does the Younger Lady mummy have a gaping hole in left side of her face while the Elder Lady is intact?
Today, scientific details are often sought to answer 'how' a thing was done, who did it, what was done, when and where. These are sometimes thought to answer 'Why'.
Forensic study to provide quantified details (data) is valid and necessary but is not always relevant to answer 'why' a thing was done.
For example, to answer why a message was composed does not require to know how it was written, with what instrument, where, when or by whom. To answer why in such case requires the ability to recognize and read the content. A message composed with mummies like one composed with hieroglphs is a valid construct to be read. The mummies in KV35(JC) are elements in such a construct that is to be read.

Let's start with the hole in the face of YL. Some cultures today have social ideas such as 'saving face' and 'broken face' to express shame, dishonor and embarrassment. The hole in her face marks YL as a figure in shame. That is the significance of her broken face. There is more.
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In hieroglyphic constructs, determinatives are used to indicate or inform about qualities of a word or thing. For example, a wnrd or thing can be characterized as weak or strong.
The holes in thoraxes of the mummies EL and YL can be regarded as informative symbols Each hole indicates motheriood or birth of a child.

The Elder Lady with the largest hole in her thorax symbolizes a woman who gave birth to a strong child, great child or children ('like' Tiye gave birth to a great child or great children).

The Younger Lady has a smaller hole in her thorax to symbolize one who gave birth to a weak child, such that could embarrass and shame the mother. It also indicates involvement of a child with defect or disability like a child with a club foot and cleft palate for example.
YL is in a position of shame.

The right arm of a person represents strength, power, support and honor. YL's right arm is torn from her like the birth of a child with defects would metaphorically tear away all that the right arm symbolizes.

Damage to the mummies was artificially constructed.
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's just not possible to resist this. If the hole in the thorax of Tiye and the YL represent then giving birth, why does the boy also have a large hole in his thorax. And why was the YL found with two right arms, and Tiye's feet broken off at the ankle.
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The boy in the construct symbolically represents the child of the Elder Lady. The strong and great child grows up to leave his mother's side and leaves a metaphorical hole in her side in manhood by leaving his mother. She suffers the great loss that a mother feels when her child leaves. This demonstrates a strong maternal bond.

The Elder Lady's right arm raises her hand to her chin to symbolize and show strength.
The boy's arms are at his sides because his mother is his strength in childhood. Her arm is strong for both of them.

Would royal bodies be so intentionally damaged to construct such a demonstration when it would honor royal subjects to serve the royal house even in death even sometimes to answer for the king?
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, if the gaping holes in the bodies of two women represent them giving birth, what does the same damage to the boy indicate, and why did the YL have two arms and why were Tiye's feet not attached to her ankles. Also, given the damage to the three KV35 Jc mummies, why is there no damage to the KV55 mummy, proven by DNA to be the son of Tiye and full sister of the YL. Surely, if there were some symbolic reason for the damage, as you suggest, then would not KV55 suffer the same, and Tutankhamun.

I'll offer the reason being that both KV55 and Tutankhamun had escaped the depredations of robbers, while their relatives had not. Thutmose III, also found in KV35, had all four limbs cut off and been beheaded, is that "ritual", or robbers ?
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
It's just not possible to resist this. If the hole in the thorax of Tiye and the YL represent then giving birth, why does the boy also have a large hole in his thorax. And why was the YL found with two right arms, and Tiye's feet broken off at the ankle.


The holes are not specifically about EL and YL having given birth. They are to metaphorically represent maternal positions, status. YL is weak, in shame, disfavor. EL is strong, in honor, favor.

The hole in the boy's chest pertains to the heart. One aspect is simply that a big hole implies big heart (courage). Other aspects can be obtained from myths and spells. They are applicable like footnotes into a context. I think people who know the various texts can navigate the varied constructs with greater than me. They have to first recognize there are other layers of information involved.

Now, I don't remember the extra parts with the YL or the condition of EL's ankle. It has been a few years since I developed the KV35(JC) references. I did not study those elements. KV35 was a side trip in study of KV62 for me because references pointed me there. It seems the lock of "Tiye's" hair was a pointer for others. There are also references to Khufu's pyramid.

Anyhow, I don't know about the extra parts with YL. I can speculate that they are references that relate to the group of nine major mummies in the tomb. I think I recall there was some dismemberment or disarticulation in those mummies. So, I would suspect to look to those for some relevance to extra bones or missing parts.

The references I followed have an objective. There are royal tombs and more . The seemingly silly exercises that I point to are informative in a greater design that has to be learned to be known else people think it is just trinkets and trophies in dusty tombs to put into museums.
Think. Are there no lifelike portraits of the royals for example? And, portraits are trivial.
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
... And why was the YL found with two right arms, and Tiye's feet broken off at the ankle.

As I noted, I don't remember the particular details about parts found with the YL but if she had two right arms with her, then it fits into the purpose of the construct of three mummies.

First, I have question.
The construct involves a negative inclusion (that is a fundamentally necessary element that is not explicitly included or declared).

If EL is Tiye and YL is her daughter then what element is missing?
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
So, if the gaping holes in the bodies of two women represent them giving birth, what does the same damage to the boy indicate, and why did the YL have two arms and why were Tiye's feet not attached to her ankles.

I answered in preceding posts and repeat that the holes are not about them giving birth except to represent their positional statuses. El is a metaphorical representation of someone who gave birth to a great person. YL is weak in relation to EL. It is a metaphor.

Quote:
Also, given the damage to the three KV35 Jc mummies, why is there no damage to the KV55 mummy, proven by DNA to be the son of Tiye and full sister of the YL. Surely, if there were some symbolic reason for the damage, as you suggest, then would not KV55 suffer the same, and Tutankhamun.

Your proposition is like saying that exeryone in a family must wear a shirt with the same message because one member is found to advertise a specific message.
Consider that one message is not good in all contexts. This is why all road signs do not say to turn left because the are in one city.

Quote:
I'll offer the reason being that both KV55 and Tutankhamun had escaped the depredations of robbers, while their relatives had not. Thutmose III, also found in KV35, had all four limbs cut off and been beheaded, is that "ritual", or robbers ?

I did not suggest ritual or robbery. A sign that informs about roadway speed limits is not ritualistic in nature and neither is the construct in KV35(JC). . It is simply informative.
I have no idea about the involvement of KV55 in any of the contexts I've noted.
What I do know is that Egyptology is looking for a few good kings. If there was certainty about what is on hand, "KV55" would simply be Akhenaten.
I agree that Tutankhamun has so far escaped all depredation.
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PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2020 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure whether you are laughing or panicking when you make these posts, but I'll credit you for being imaginative.

Let's try this. Are you saying that the damage suffered by the three KV35 chamber Jc mummies, except that to the face of the YL, was inflicted by the people who buried them, and by that I mean the entire process from their deaths to being put in a tomb.
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
I'm not sure whether you are laughing or panicking when you make these posts, but I'll credit you for being imaginative.

Let's try this. Are you saying that the damage suffered by the three KV35 chamber Jc mummies, except that to the face of the YL, was inflicted by the people who buried them, and by that I mean the entire process from their deaths to being put in a tomb.


Thank you for the compliment but my imagination is fairly tame. I was that weird kid who took things apart, analyzed things until they gave, was a pain in always asking why, then became a solutions person. I don't panic and certainly don't laugh at people or try to waste their time. Everybody has a perspective to contribute.
I'm only trying to share some of my observations and am withholding the most unexpected findings. This is low hanging fruit. Egypt gets much more interesting for researchers. It has surprises waiting. There are good reasons for all the apparent strangeness that is discovered.

I obviously don't know the ancient organizations to say who specifically did what. I can say that the damage was constructed. There are others. I first studied images of the wounds in the head of Seqennre Tao/Taa (2003?) because they made no sense to me. There is interesting stuff there also. The wound in his forehead has relation to his dental spacing and other strangeness.

I don't know how the figures in KV35(JC) died, only that the mummies are involved in an artificial construct. The damage is constructed to inform. That includes face of the YL. Also, I don't know why mumies are related and will not speculate a guess.

So, what do you think is that missing element so I can continue to explain the construct?
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How can I or anybody say what this "missing element" when you are making a construct within your own mind, and cannot even say what "organisations" were responsible for the damage to the mummies. Btw, robbers are a gang. Also, btw, it is a typical fringe tactic to say they have information, but cannot release it. Until you come up with evidence, you are just saying stuff.

Tiye's and the boy's feet not attached ?

Explanation for prince Amenemhat B in KV43 being in the same condition as the KV35 boy, even down to finger placement? This question comes back to you saying in a thread that the KV35 Jc mummies, Tutankhamun and KV55 mummy are "decoys". Is Amenemhat B a decoy as well?

Plausible explanation for there being a spare arm with the YL, not something obviously made up on the spur of the moment?

How do your ideas stack up against the very well known funerary practises of the AE.
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