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Yuya's name
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:13 pm    Post subject: Yuya's name Reply with quote

I know that the queston about the many spellings of Yuya's name came up a while ago. I think Sesen may have brought this up originally.
I can't find the original question, but I did come across a list of spellings of Yuya's name:

On the sarcophagus and coffins:
1. Iaa (i33 ; reed - vulture - vulture )
2. Iau (iaw ; reed - vulture - chick)

Small scent chest:
3. Yui (ywi ; double reed - chick - reed)

Canopic box:
4. Iaiu (i3iw ; reed - vulture - reed - chick)

Ushabti box:
5. Yuia (ywi3 ; double reed - chick - reed - vulture)

On ushabtis:
6. Iay (i3y ; reed - vulture - double reed)
7. Yiu (?) (yiw ; 3 reeds (!) - chick)
8. Iay (i3y ; reed - vulture - double reed)
9. Yuia (ywi3 ; double reed - chick - reed - vulture) (same as 5)

Gilded cartonage:
10. Ya (?) (reed - seated man with hand to mouth - reed - vulture)

Small limestone vases:
11. Iay (?) (reed - seated man with hand to mouth - vulture - pair of strokes)

These are ten different spellings, and according to Maspero there are even more. He notes that the most usual pronunciation is #5 = #9 = Yuia, (Although dropping one reed from the front of the name would render it Iuia.)
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The one hieroglyphic spelling I could expediently find of Yuya is on that famous steatite marriage scarab of Tiya. The relevant inscription says rn n it=s yuy3... ("the name of her father is Yuya"). It's on page 54 of Reeve's Egypt's False Prophet: Akhenaten. So spelled with the two reed leafs, then the quail chick, then a single reed leaf, and finally the hawk or falcon, the pronunciation is reliably "Yuya."

Of course, that's as it appears on this one artifact. I've hardly seen how Yuya's name is hieroglyphically spelled on all the other period objects. It's interesting to use this variance as a bit of evidence for a foreign origin for Yuya. Numerous spellings would indicate an Egyptian attempt to sound out a name that was not Egyptian, and we see an awful lot of that in the Ptolemaic and Roman periods much later on.
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So spelled with the two reed leafs, then the quail chick, then a single reed leaf, and finally the hawk or falcon, the pronunciation is reliably "Yuya."


Sorry, I meant to say "Yuia." My mind has a mind of its own lately, and neither is working right.

Technically the single reed leaf as a weak consonant can be used as an "a," as well as an "i," so we could go with "Yuaa," although the hawk is actually a glottal stop (transliterated as 3 but usually converted into a simple "a" in Western languages), so we might render it "Yua-a."

I think I'll just stop now.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The marriage scarab uses the same spelling as #5 and #9 then, the most common spelling.
I used the Collier and Manley description for the bird, and they call it a vulture (I'm not arguing with you about the type of bird Very Happy just letting you know where I got the description from Wink )

I did find it interesting that the spelling seemed to change from object to object.

How would you transliterate "3 reeds - chick"? That one just looks weird to me. There is a sign with 3 reeds (C19 in Collier and Manley), but that would give the name 'sekhetu', which doesn't make sense, and would require a slightly different drawing of the reeds.

Tuya's name was spelled in just 3 closely related ways.
1. Tuiu (twiw ; tethering rope - chick - reed - chick)
2. Tui (twi ; tethering rope - chick - reed )
3. Tuiu (twiw ; tethering rope - hieratic equivalent of chick - reed - chick)

So, not much changes in spelling there.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I used the Collier and Manley description for the bird, and they call it a vulture (I'm not arguing with you about the type of bird just letting you know where I got the description from )...How would you transliterate "3 reeds - chick"? That one just looks weird to me.


Actually it is a vulture, what they call "Egyptian vulture." I say hawk or falcon to differentiate it from the other hieroglyphic vulture, which is the word mwt. They are two different glyphs but calling the glottal stop (3) vulture can get confusing.

Anyway, with the three reed leafs I would break it into a pair and then a single. With the chick on the end it would be pronounced something like "Yeh-ee-u." Many Egyptian words are very hard for Westerners to say and require some amount of practice, lest you want to spittle instead of speak. Surprised
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had wondered about those birds Very Happy I have to say I like your description better. You're right the bird used to write the name of Mut really looks like a vulture, the others not so much (to me anyways). Then again, I'm not a bird enthusiast Laughing

Quote:
Anyway, with the three reed leafs I would break it into a pair and then a single. With the chick on the end it would be pronounced something like "Yeh-ee-u."

Sounds more like a sneeze....


Quote:
Many Egyptian words are very hard for Westerners to say and require some amount of practice, lest you want to spittle instead of speak.

LOL Don't you hate it when people put up an umbrella when you talk to them? Laughing

All kidding aside, it seems pretty tricky to come up with the possible pronunciations. The article I was reading was written by Gaston Maspero in the early 1900's, influenced by the fact that he was French and his transliterations are really hard to read.

Yuia is rendered Iouiya
Tuya is rendered Touiyou
smr w3ty n mr.rt (beloved sole companion or sole companion of love?) he turns into samir-uaou-ni-marouit
etc.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yuia is rendered Iouiya
Tuya is rendered Touiyou
smr w3ty n mr.rt (beloved sole companion or sole companion of love?) he turns into samir-uaou-ni-marouit
etc.


Let's not be mistaken, Maspero was a great man. I think it's safe to say he was one of the most brilliant Egyptological scholars of the late 19th century. But at the time he was actively excavating in Egypt--in the 1880s--hieroglyphs were still something of a mystery. They had been deciphered only about 60 years before, and it wasn't even until the 1840s when anyone could coherently read a single sentece of ancient Egyptian.

I love the examples you provide. They're a great illustration of how the scholars of this time were trying to use classical languages to assign sounds and spellings to ancient Egyptian. This is one reason I generally hesitate to put too much stock into translations from the 19th century.

Incidentally, smr w3ty n mr.rt I would translate via your first example: "beloved sole companion," but the n mr.rt portion could be translated as "of the beloved." It's a bit odd to phrase it that way. The term smr w3t is a common accolade honorifically bestowed by the king. The example you provide may make more sense if it were phrased smr w3ty n nsw mr.rt, "sole companion of the beloved king," but that "t" ending on the "beloved" is feminine and would mean the king were a woman. I'll just leave it at that. Very Happy
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:

Let's not be mistaken, Maspero was a great man. I think it's safe to say he was one of the most brilliant Egyptological scholars of the late 19th century. But at the time he was actively excavating in Egypt--in the 1880s--hieroglyphs were still something of a mystery. They had been deciphered only about 60 years before, and it wasn't even until the 1840s when anyone could coherently read a single sentece of ancient Egyptian.


Yes, Maspero was indeed a great man. He was the equivalent of HAwass in his days if I remember correctly.
I was really thrilled to see the article by him about Yuya and Tuya as an introduction in the book I got.
I found it fascinating to see the way he had written up the article. Like you said, this was still in the relatively early days of Egyptology and it was neat to see a glimpse of how they translated hieroglyphics in those days.
It's clear that the transliteration has changed a bit in modern days.

kmt_sesh wrote:
I love the examples you provide. They're a great illustration of how the scholars of this time were trying to use classical languages to assign sounds and spellings to ancient Egyptian. This is one reason I generally hesitate to put too much stock into translations from the 19th century.

It was very interesting to read his article.
I was impressed by his rather common sense approach.

kmt_sesh wrote:
Incidentally, smr w3ty n mr.rt I would translate via your first example: "beloved sole companion," but the n mr.rt portion could be translated as "of the beloved." It's a bit odd to phrase it that way. The term smr w3t is a common accolade honorifically bestowed by the king. The example you provide may make more sense if it were phrased smr w3ty n nsw mr.rt, "sole companion of the beloved king," but that "t" ending on the "beloved" is feminine and would mean the king were a woman. I'll just leave it at that. Very Happy

I had noticed the feminine ending and then forgot about it.
It's interesting though. I have always wondered if the theory by Cyril Aldred could be true.
Namely that Yuya was the brother of Queen Mutemwia. Aldred speculated that both were offspring of Yey. A shabti of Yey has been found and he held titles similar to those of Yuya.
In this case the title could have been bestowed by Queen Mutemwia (or refer to her)? Would explain the 'mereret' and the end AND the omission of 'nsw'.
Nothing more than speculation, but I find it interesting....
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In this case the title could have been bestowed by Queen Mutemwia (or refer to her)? Would explain the 'mereret' and the end AND the omission of 'nsw'.
Nothing more than speculation, but I find it interesting....


I don't see any problem in thinking that a queen would have her own "beloved sole companions" just as the king did. I haven't seen inscriptions of that nature, but that doesn't mean much. A powerful queen had her retinue and courtiers the same as any king. Yours is as good an explaination as any.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was just eading someting about Mutemwia and Tuthmosis IV. Apparently Amenhotep was between 8 and 12 when he came to the throne. Thutmosis only ruled for some 10 years. His mummy shows someone who died at 25-30 years.

All of this means I think that in all likelyhood Thutmosis married Mutemwia before he came to the throne. He was at that point not the crown prince as some evidence points to a power struggle (assuming the upper range for the age of Amenhotep III).
I wonder if this is the reason that people have speculated that Mutemwia was possibly a sister of Yuya. It would explain why he became influentual enough to marry his daughter off to the young king Very Happy

It may also shed some light on the question why Amenhotep III felt he had to portray himself as the result of a divine birth. Always thought that was strange.

On a different train of thought: In the name Mut-Tuy, do you know what the Tuy part means?
Mutemwia means "mut in the barque"
Mut-tuy means what?
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In the name Mut-Tuy, do you know what the Tuy part means?


I can't be sure without seeing the hieroglyphic spelling, because there are so many ways to spell words and roots, and slightly different spellings can produce entirely different words--similar to how slightly different tonal pronunciations in Asian languages produces different words of identical spellings. Do you know the hieroglyphic spelling, per chance? The only twy I can think of is the demonstrative adjective meaning "this" or "that."
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure how it's spelled.
I thought like Tui's name:
Tui (twi ; tethering rope - chick - reed )

I'm not 100% sure about that though.....
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wanted to say thanks for bringing up this question of Yuya and Tuya's names. I'm reading with great interest. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm not sure how it's spelled.


Sorry I didn't get back to you on this sooner, anneke. To be honest I'm just not sure. Names can be tricky sometimes to figure out (at least for me) even when you have the hieroglyphs.

For instance, we have a coffin in our exhibit containing the body of a woman (3rd Intermediate Period). I have yet to find where on the coffin her name is painted--it may be out of view--but the label in the display case tells us it is Djed-iu-mutes-ankh. Try figuring out what that name means. As far as that goes, it took me awhile to learn to say it smoothly without spraying people or spraining my tongue. It's quite entertaining to stand quietly in the background and listen to museum visitors try to pronounce it aloud.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can imagine. You wouldn't even be sure that the parsing of the name was correct. I recognize the 'djed' and the 'ankh'. The rest I don't know about.

I must be fun to hear people try. But that's the same when you're trying to guess the pronanciation of words in language you don't speak.

I'm sure I would sound just as foolish in say Italian as I would trying to guess at egyptian Very Happy
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