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Question about Nefertiti's name

 
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anneke
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 2:52 pm    Post subject: Question about Nefertiti's name Reply with quote

I may be proving beyond a shodow of a doubt here that a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing Laughing

But I have a question about the reading of Nefertiti's name. It's always rendered "Neferneferuaten-Nefertiti"

Here's an example of her cartouche from the Egyptian dreams shop:
(There are other examples on the web, but these are nice size images)


The hieroglyph on the bottom left of the cartouche is sometimes rendered slightly different I think. (Should be a pestle, not a nsw sign.)

But her name has 4 nfr signs, so shouldn't her name start with
Neferneferneferneferaten? (Akhenaten stuttered when he gave her this name? Smile )

The rest of her name reads more like nfrtyisw or in other writings nfrtyit.
So why Nefertiti? Looks more like Nefertyiti (maybe Nefertyati) or in this case even Nefertyisu.

Here's a cartouche from the egyptian dreams shop:


Neferneferneferneferaten-Neferytyti?
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But her name has 4 nfr signs, so shouldn't her name start with
Neferneferneferneferaten?


Someone should write a book about that: How to Stutter in Egytian Hieroglyphs. Actually, the four nfr glyphs are what we call reduplication, a feature common in numerous langauges. It can perform various tasks, but in this case it serves to form a superlative thought: the name nfrnfru-itn is generally translated as "Aten is the most perfect" or "...most beautiful." We see above the nfr glpyhs the three hieroglyphs (and the determinative) that spell out itn, "Aten."

Quote:
So why Nefertiti? Looks more like Nefertyiti (maybe Nefertyati) or in this case even Nefertyisu.


You're right about the nsw glyph at the bottom: it should be the pestle, which was often used as a simple "t" but otherwise carried the sound value of "ti." The reed leaf with the little feet poking out the bottom was generally an "ii" sound but can also be read as "i(y)i" (the "y" is there to help make the pronunciation a bit easier); And that bread loaf ("t") with the two white lines below it may be meant to form the dual ending "-ty" (feminine), though that's usually employed only with things that come in pairs, but it could be used differently when inserted into names. It's quite possible that the bread loaf and verticle lines together with the "walking" reed leaf are all there to help flesh out the third syllable; the walking reed leaf, for instance, may be there idiogramically.

All that being said, and assuming the pestle is meant instead of the sedge (nsw) glyph, what we see at the bottom of the cartouche could be sounded out as "Nefertyti" or "Nefertiiti."

Strange, though, that the little seated determinative figure seems to have a beard. Did Nefertiti have a facial-hair problem?

Now, the important question is, if I'm at all close to helping you figure this out, do I win one of the two Egyptian Dreams' gift shop pieces shown in your post? Very Happy
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:

Actually, the four nfr glyphs are what we call reduplication, a feature common in numerous langauges. It can perform various tasks, but in this case it serves to form a superlative thought: the name nfrnfru-itn is generally translated as "Aten is the most perfect" or "...most beautiful." We see above the nfr glpyhs the three hieroglyphs (and the determinative) that spell out itn, "Aten."

I wondered if it was something like that. So the last 3 nefer signs are transliterated as neferu, and interpreted as the most beautiful.
I did notice that her daughter Neferneferuaten's name is spelled the same way Smile

kmt_sesh wrote:

It's quite possible that the bread loaf and verticle lines together with the "walking" reed leaf are all there to help flesh out the third syllable; the walking reed leaf, for instance, may be there idiogramically.


Her name is usually explained as meaning "the beautiful one has come". I guess the reed with the feet indicates motion. Might be fun to point out to visitors once the tut exhibit is in Chicago? It is interesting that Nefertari for instance only has 1 nefer sign in her name (or it's spelled out in the long way I think), but nefernferuaten-nefertiti has a grand total of 5 nefer signs Very Happy Must have been really really pretty Wink


kmt_sesh wrote:
Strange, though, that the little seated determinative figure seems to have a beard. Did Nefertiti have a facial-hair problem?

Her epithets of "beautiful of face" is well known. The epithet "quite handy with wax" is usually not repeated in books about Nefertiti Very Happy
Okay, made that one up....

kmt_sesh wrote:
Now, the important question is, if I'm at all close to helping you figure this out, do I win one of the two Egyptian Dreams' gift shop pieces shown in your post? Very Happy

LOL No just my gratitude I'm afraid....
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Her name is usually explained as meaning "the beautiful one has come". I guess the reed with the feet indicates motion. Might be fun to point out to visitors once the tut exhibit is in Chicago?


I hadn't even considered what things of Nefertiti we might be getting. I actually have the catalogue of artifacts somewhere in my mess of an apartment, so maybe I'll attempt an excavation to unearth it. This may require considerable effort.

But yes, that's definitely something worth pointing out. Incidentally, the "walking" reed leaf (ii or i(y)i) when used as a verb means "come."

Quote:
Her epithets of "beautiful of face" is well known. The epithet "quite handy with wax" is usually not repeated in books about Nefertiti
Okay, made that one up....


Laughing Laughing Laughing

I thought you may have pulled that from one of Fletcher's meticulously researched books.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:

I hadn't even considered what things of Nefertiti we might be getting. I actually have the catalogue of artifacts somewhere in my mess of an apartment, so maybe I'll attempt an excavation to unearth it. This may require considerable effort.

But yes, that's definitely something worth pointing out. Incidentally, the "walking" reed leaf (ii or i(y)i) when used as a verb means "come."


It would be interesting to see what objects related to Nefertiti you will get. It sounds like quite a diverse collection though.

When I realized that the walking reed indicated movement, or as you say means "come", the translations of "The beautiful One has Come" all of a sudden made sense.
They made quite a bit of this name in the early days, speculating about just where exactly she had come from Laughing

It really is nice when you can see these things right in front of you Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It really is nice when you can see these things right in front of you


Indeed it is. That's why I've been going through all this effort to learn hieroglyphs. I am far from an expert, but when you can actually read many of the things the ancients were saying, it just means so much more on a personal level. It's a great deal of fun, too.

Well, some might call me a masochist for saying studying hieroglyphs is fun, but...

Okay, it's true, I'm a masochist.
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Serenity78
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:
Quote:
It really is nice when you can see these things right in front of you


......That's why I've been going through all this effort to learn hieroglyphs. I am far from an expert, but when you can actually read many of the things the ancients were saying, it just means so much more on a personal level. It's a great deal of fun, too. .....


Well don't feel too bad, you both are FAR more educated in such matters than I am! Laughing Nice props in the pic though Anneke! I wish I had the money to get things like that.
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