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Minoans, the flood myths and more :)
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 10:28 pm    Post subject: Minoans, the flood myths and more :) Reply with quote

Moderator's note: I moved this interesting discussion here Smile
It comes from the pyramid forum, the "Mickey Mouse influence on pyramids" thread.


Jason Patterson wrote:
I very much doubt that the pyramids had any influence by aliens or "Atlanteans". Like the others have already said, there is no evidence that Disney Land was real or just a good point made by Plato. Yes, there are new cities being discovered, but does every sunken city have to be Disney Land?

There are many theories on Disney Land, I tend to think Minoan theory the best, but then again, Disney Land could be the ancient Greek version of Noah's flood. Almost every culture on earth has some version of it which makes me believe the theory that my Psychology teacher brought up in High School.

I also favor the Minoan origin, JP. I will stress that I believe the Disney Land myth and Noah's flood fable to be two entirely separate stories drawn up by two entirely different civilizations widely spaced apart in time.

The best explanation I've yet come across for Disney Land is Rodney Castleden's Disney Land Destroyed (Routledge, 2001). Here's the Amazon link for it:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0415247594/qid=1114899090/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-6521374-6089420

The Aegean connection is certainly nothing new, but Castelden presents it in a particularly clear and convincing manor. By the time you're done reading his book, you can plainly see how Minoan Crete and Minoan Thera (and their subsequent cultural collapse due to the volcanic eruption) were what much later became Plato's Disney Land. Actually the story is much older than what Plato gives us--his version is just the best and most complete to survive. Castleden inculdes a good deal of insight into Minoan culture and religion and how foreign civilizations influenced it, ancient Egypt being one of the most influential.

Castleden does a good job of explaining something else I've always believed--that Plato used as a literary device the distant memory of the natural destruction of a true civilization as a political and social statement about the Athens of his time.

That's more than need be said on my part, but it's a subject that interests me. I truly recommend Castelden's book to anyone who's interested in the ancient Aegeans as the origins of Disney Land.

As far as Noah's flood goes, I still believe it's nothing more than a Judaic retelling of the far-older epic of Gilgamesh. All one needs to do is read that epic. The similarities are too many to be coincidence.
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Jason Patterson
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you that the Disney Land origins have an Aegean or near east origin. Scholars in Greece are starting to think that a city near Athens that was swept under in flooding during the time period shortly before the Myceanean period could be the origins of the myth. But, until it is proven, which I doubt it ever will be, think that it had to do with Crete and Thera.

I also agree somewhat that Noah's flood goes with Sumeria. I saw a program on TLC or the Discovery channel recently about how archaeologist possibly found evidence that the epic of Gilgamesh is partly based on reality. They found a few tablets about a merchant-king who built a large ship to transport more goods up the rivers, actually four boats tied together. Anyway in short heavy rains in the Ararat region flooded the rivers, and evidence points through soil and core samples that the region between the two rivers were flooded all the way down to the gulf. So when this sudden flood hit "Noah" and his family was caught in it going to a trade city and all he could see was water and the water was salty, so you can see how they thought the whole world was flooded, and actually their world was. It's very interesting on how they think this account was a possibly an origin of Gilgamesh and Noah.

But this does not explain how almost every culture has a primitive story about how a man and his family survived the wrath of god(s).
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isisinacrisis
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that Disney Land may be Santorini or part of the Minoan culture and how it got destroyed by the santorini volcano.
That's interesting about the new Noah theory. But how could the water be salty during flooding if it was caused by rain and fresh river water? That's puzzling.

However I disagree about there being other flooding myths in other cultures, I have seen no proof of this, the only ones are from Greece (Disney Land) and the Middle East (Noah/Gilgamesh). Importantly there are no 'flood myths' from Egypt (the myth of creation with the waters of Nun doesn't really count, as this was not a disastrous flood, but the waters of creation that existed from the beginning.) If anyone can prove to me that Egypt and other cultures other than the Greeks and Sumerians had flood myths, that would be good.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found a listing of Flood Myths from around the world

They include stories from the Sumerians (the famous Gilgamesh story), Babylonians, Hebrew, Australians, Chaldeans, Hindu, Apache, Mayans, Inca and more.

The Aztec story for example:
Quote:
In the Valley of Mexico there lived a pious man named Tapi. Creator told him to build a boat to live in, to take his wife and a pair of every animal that existed. Neighbors thought he was crazy. As soon as he finished, it began to rain. The valley flooded; men and animals went to mountains, but they were submerged. The rain ended, waters receded, etc. Tapi realized that the flood waters had receded after having sent a dove that did not return. Tapi rejoiced.


It is interesting as you note Isis that the Egyptians don't seem to have a similar story. Or do they?

Nothing about the Minoans either Very Happy

I'm curious. The Minoans had a writing system didn't they? Has that ever been deciphered? It would be interesting to see what they had to say about themselves.

Do we know what kind of mythology was prevalent among the Minoans?
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Minoans used two languages, anneke. Linear A and Linear B. Parts of B have been translated, but A remains a mystery. You can read more here:
http://stigmes.gr/br/brpages/articles/scripts.htm
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Minoans have a language inprinted on the 'Phaistos disk' a small disk with a mysterious script that hasn't been deciphered yet. I saw it when i was in Crete.

Anneke, either that website you posted is making things up (no offence-just my dreaded inner sceptic coming through) or the flood myths from places as far off as America, India and Australia are spookily similar to the Noah story. It's either something invented by the site owner (sounds harsh, I know, but it's very likely) or makes you wonder whether these far off cultures really did trade with each other (fat chance!) or if there's some 'collective unconsious' at work here (personally i think this collective unconsious idea is really interesting.)

If this website is genuine, then what could have caused these distant peoples to create such myths? Climate change? The end of the ice age? Tsunamis?

And another thing Anneke. This post is in the 'shop queries' section of the forum, not the 'general discussion'!!! Embarassed
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isis,

The website isn't making things up. I come from the Cherokee tribe, and I have heard many many tells of flood myths. This is mainly true with the Mississippi Mound Builder cultures.

I personally think the collective memories are the best chance here, or there are some evidence, not much to prove it, but some to mention it that there could have been a world wide flood for the most part at the end of the last ice age when the water levels rose.

Here is another more complete with about all of the flood myths around the world, very large collection:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html

Quote:
But how could the water be salty during flooding if it was caused by rain and fresh river water? That's puzzling.


If you mean about what I was saying about the Sumerian version. Well the two rivers run into the Persian Gulf which is salt water and they flooded the entire region, at least that is what the core and soil samples have concluded. I believe they say that they said it floods like that every 10,000 years or so, could be wrong on the correct timing so don't quote me on that.

P.S.
Quote:
If anyone can prove to me that Egypt and other cultures other than the Greeks and Sumerians had flood myths, that would be good.

Here is the Egyptian story:
People have become rebellious. Atum said he will destroy all he made and return the earth to the Primordial Water which was its original state. Atum will remain, in the form of a serpent, with Osiris. [Faulkner, plate 30] (Unfortunately the version of the papyrus with the flood story is damaged and unclear.)
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry about that 'somewhat harsh' remark I made-it's just that I was a bit shocked at how similar the flood myths were with their themes of one man being forewarned by the gods, boats filled with animals, rain for 40 days and so on being told in places as far apart as Mexico and India etc, that I thought it was invented. Damn my evil sceptic who lives in my brain, I hate you! Laughing

Of course, if it was a sea and river water mix, it would have been salty.
Jason, is this 'collective memories' thing the same as the concept of the 'collective unconsious' I've heard about?

I've not heard of this Egyptian flood myth. I'm surprised it's not as well known as the other Egyptian myths. Maybe because it doesn't actually tell of a flood, but warns of what could happen if mankind went awry?
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Jason, is this 'collective memories' thing the same as the concept of the 'collective unconsious' I've heard about?


Yes the same thing. The theoy by Carl Jung, a pupil of Simund Freud, I think that is how you spell his name. Actually this theory is what divided them and they never spoke again because of it, that and the human primal sex theory.

Quote:
I've not heard of this Egyptian flood myth. I'm surprised it's not as well known as the other Egyptian myths. Maybe because it doesn't actually tell of a flood, but warns of what could happen if mankind went awry?


Well I think it is because the papyri that it was written on was damaged and the fragment that I posted was all that survived. I think the other myths have been recorded some many times that it is almost common in ancient Egyptian sites. So Atum could have destroyed the world and sent it back to the Primordial Water, we don't know, the rest of the text hasn't survived.
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Osiris II wrote:
The Minoans used two languages, anneke. Linear A and Linear B. Parts of B have been translated, but A remains a mystery. You can read more here:
http://stigmes.gr/br/brpages/articles/scripts.htm


Thanks for that link Osiris.

One of the links showing a part of the "hieroglyphics" looks interesting.

Isisinancrisis wrote:
This post is in the 'shop queries' section of the forum, not the 'general discussion'

Shows me not to do things when I'm in a hurry Wink
Better now? Smile
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's interesting that you have a Native American background, JP. You may know much about the subject, then. I've studied the Lakota of the Northen Plains for years, and they also have a flood story. In theirs a single woman is saved by Eagle, who gives up his status as deity to become a mortal man to marry this woman, and thus the world is repopulated. All of the people who drowned settled to the bottom of the flood waters, and their blood seeped into the ground at a certain point in southwest Minnesota, where today there are the Pipestone quarries--the same reddish stone from which the Lakota and numerous other American Indian peoples still make their prayer pipes. Native Americans have a particularly rich mythology, and it's striking how they, too, have so contributed to the corpus of flood myths.
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About the flood - see my comments in the Rain thread

http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=307&start=15

I think oral traditions go a lot further back than many imagine.

As for Santorini and the Minoans

The island of Thera is the semi-circular remains of a volcano surrounding a bay, which is the collapsed caldera of a much older eruption, circa 21,000 yrs BP. The cliffs on the interior of the island were white, black, and red from ash and lava flows. At the time of the Minoan eruption, the caldera had partially filled in with a new central island. The coloring of the cliffs and the ring-like island, with a ring of bay encirling an interior island is one of the primary reasons Thera has been identified as Disney Land.

There is again an island in the caldera.

http://volcano.und.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/europe_west_asia/santorini.html

The Minoan civilization survived the eruption. There is evidence of rebuilding on Crete. Then a massive earthquake struck the island, with much devastation. Then invaders, possibly the Myceneans, finished them off. It wasn't one disaster, it was several that caused the collapse.

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking for something else entirely I came across this site Smile
http://www.noteaccess.com/APPROACHES/DecorativeAA/Knossos.htm

Apparently from Evans, Sir Arthur. The Palace of Minos. A Comparative Account of the Successive Stages of the Early Cretan Civilization as Illustrated by the Discoveries. Vol. II: Part II. Town-Houses in Knossos of the New Era and Restored West Palace Section, with its State Approach. New York: Biblo and Tannen:. 1964.

The descriptions of the decorations from "the house of frescoes" sounds interesting. Apparently the frescoes have retained some of their original color.
They seem to show some subjects (monkeys?) that can be argued to be of Egyptian design.

Quote:
The analogies here with the Cretan work are so patent that an indebtedness on one side or the other must be admitted. It is true that these Egyptian designs are later in date than those of the 'House of the Frescoes' since they belong to the time of Amenhotep II, c. 1449-1423, whereas the Knossian wall-paintings go back ex hypothesis to a date not later than the middle of the sixteenth century B.C. On the other hand, the sandy desert belts depicted in the Theban tomb, and to which we see so close a parallel on our monkey panel [Fig. 264], clearly belong to Egypt. [p. 449]


Made me wish I could see some of those frescoes Very Happy The colors sounds very nice, and so does the subject matter.

I really only know the bull dancers and the minoan snake priestesses (from way back when I was a student).
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diorite wrote:
Quote:
The Minoan civilization survived the eruption. There is evidence of rebuilding on Crete. Then a massive earthquake struck the island, with much devastation. Then invaders, possibly the Myceneans, finished them off.


It appears the Minoan civilization lasted for about only a century after the Thera eruption until it finally collapsed. The earthquake probably was only a contributing factor. The Minoans were the leading merchants of the Aegean region and depended on their merchant fleet, which never quite recovered after the overwhelming destruction of Santorini.

It's interesting to speculate how the course of events in the Aegean region might have turned out had the Minoans not been wiped out. Had their civilization been allowed to continue to flourish and grow in power and reach, it's likely the Myceneans would never have reached the level of power they obtained, and it's equally possible, then, that things may not have turned out so favorably for classical Greece. Mother Nature sure can play havoc with the course of human history!

anneke wrote:
Quote:
They seem to show some subjects (monkeys?) that can be argued to be of Egyptian design.


The Minoans had enjoyed a long and lucrative trade relationship with Egypt. We see in some northern palaces of the Delta strong influential art styles from the Minoans. Conversely, you're right that the Egyptians influenced the Minoans. Especially in the ruins of Thera, where many frescoes have survived (including some with the wonderful coloration you mentioned), we see certain nature scenes that are unlikely to have been inspired by sights on Thera or Crete but more than likely were mental "photographs" brought home by Minoans who had visited the rivers and marshes of Lower Egypt.

Unrelated to Egypt but still quite interesting are some of the altars that have been unearthed at Thera. We don't know much about the religion of the Minoans--almost nothing compared to what we know of the Egyptians'--but these were rather sinister-looking altars with horns protruding from the corners. Blood residue indicates that the blood of slaughtered animals was poured over the tops of these altars during certain initiation rites of older children. It's almost like something out of those old Conan the Barbarian movies! Twisted Evil
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anneke
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmt_sesh wrote:
We don't know much about the religion of the Minoans--almost nothing compared to what we know of the Egyptians'--but these were rather sinister-looking altars with horns protruding from the corners. Blood residue indicates that the blood of slaughtered animals was poured over the tops of these altars during certain initiation rites of older children.


Are the horns related to cows?
The bull leaping seems to indicate some role of cows and bulls in their ceremonies, but I don't know if these ceremonies were religious. (I would expect them to be).

The worship of snakes also reminds me somewhat of the use of the ureaus (wadjet) and even more of the way in which the god Heka is sometimes depicted holding two snakes.
But I guess it's hard to figure out who influenced whom?
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