Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Amarna family tree
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Diorite
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 210
Location: Land of Make-Believe

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sobek wrote:


Amenhotep may be a nephew (by his mother, Mutemwia?) of Yuya. The KV35 male mummy and the KV46 male mummy share 6 of 16 alleles at 5 of 8 positions. Some of these are rare alleles in a population sample of modern Cairo. The theory that Mutemwia is a sister of Yuya has been around for decades.


I'd be happier if the modern sample was, say, of Egyptian Copts. The proportion of people of Arab decent in the population may dilute the frequency of genes in the population descended from the ancient Egyptian nobility.

Diorite
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sobek
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 113
Location: Maine, USA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'd be happier if the modern sample was, say, of Egyptian Copts. The proportion of people of Arab decent in the population may dilute the frequency of genes in the population descended from the ancient Egyptian nobility.


I agree.

What I'd really like to see is a ancient sample of 20 people, or even 10, from the Amarna cemetary Barry Kemp was (and still is?) excavating. This site was shown in the Discovery broadcast (I think). Maybe the new Cairo University laboratory will do this when they get some time.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Robson
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1009
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diorite wrote:
The proportion of people of Arab decent in the population may dilute the frequency of genes in the population descended from the ancient Egyptian nobility.

Diorite


Not quite really. All the conqueror peoples in Egypt, including Arabs and Turks, were part of the social elite, while the common people are genetically the same people from the times of the pharaohs. Egypt never had a massive invasion and settling of peoples, specially country side. For example, the Fayum and Bahariya mortuary masks usually show Greek-Italic types rather by art convention, because the skeletons and mummies inside were mostly of Egyptian, Berber and Nubian types.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Diorite
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 210
Location: Land of Make-Believe

PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You think the Egyptian nobility never spawned children with the general populace? A genetic sampling of the common people would more likely yield a closer sample of Egyptian nobility than a population contaminated with the "conquering people" like a random sampling of Cairo for the very reasons you mention.

Diorite
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
freeTinker
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Posts: 397
Location: USA - Northeast

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the sake of parity I should have posted this alternate kinda graph for KV55=Smenkhare(or other) days ago, sorry for the delay. I have tried, as far as my limited understanding goes, to include some of the daughter/wife relationships for AIII and AIV- to show this names have been entered twice, I hope it is clear enough, I have also left the mother question open for Akh and Tut which makes it look more complicated than it actually is (there can be only one mother)- if anyone is specifically interested I will make changes or corrections. I think this more or less follows Kate's post on her Valley of the Kings blog


_________________
Est modus in rebus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
freeTinker
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Posts: 397
Location: USA - Northeast

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have some questions about KV55 being Smenkhare, I would appreciate any comments...

It seems to me that Akhenaten must also have been born to AIII and Tiye, otherwise Smenkhare would have had the greater claim to the throne- what greater rank than son to the king and his GRW? - So I am left thinking Akhenaten was older brother (with exactly the same parents) to Smenkhare

Since Tut was alive prior to Akhenaten dying/disappearing/abdicating/running-away-to-join-the-circus etc. KV35YL and Smenkhare must have been married/in-a-relationship when Akhenaten was still on the throne... given that Akhenaten, by right, 'probably' inheritted the harem, which included his sisters prior married to his father (AIII, including Sitamun, Iset and possibly Henuttaneb), then is it more likely that KV35YL should be identified as; (possibly Henuttaneb) Nebtah or Beketaten?

I have read that some people consider Nebtah and Beketaten to be the same person, is there any truth to this? - there is also the old posit that Meritaten was the daughter of AIII, is this theory current or proven wrong?
_________________
Est modus in rebus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sothis
Priest
Priest


Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 659

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have read about the theories assuming that none of Akhenaten`s children was actually his own in quite old books (from the 70`s or so).
At that time the assumption of Akhenaten having suffered from Froehlich`s syndrome was at its height. Because this would have made him sterile the theory went on that probably AIII fathered the children with Nefertiti and Akhenaten just claimed them to be his own.

Now these thoughts have changed. His daughters are believed to be his own, and I personally have never heard that Meritaten is believed to be an exception.
Just the fact that she is already around in year 1 and probably born before that should not raise doubts on Akhenaten`s fatherhood.
We assume too readily that a king and his GRW married exactly at the time of his coronation. But that`s not logical especially when the king is already grown up. How should he know when or if at all he would became king? He might have to wait forever.....

In my view the most natural thing for a royal prince was to chose a suitable wife when he came of age who would become GRW at his accession.
In the case of KV55 being Akhenaten he may have been married to his sister who apparently disappeared (died) at some point during his reign, but I find it hard to imagine the reason why she wasn`t GRW and why she went unmentioned.
It is easier to believe that his younger brother married his sister who died before his own accession, so he married Meritaten.
If you want to go with the theorie that the Younger Lady may have been Meritaten (see thread "food for thought"),it becomes still easier to reconcile with the known historical facts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Meretseger
Priest
Priest


Joined: 02 Jan 2010
Posts: 588

PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

freeTinker wrote:
I have some questions about KV55 being Smenkhare, I would appreciate any comments...

It seems to me that Akhenaten must also have been born to AIII and Tiye, otherwise Smenkhare would have had the greater claim to the throne- what greater rank than son to the king and his GRW? - So I am left thinking Akhenaten was older brother (with exactly the same parents) to Smenkhare


Quite right. If KV55 was Smenkhkara his estimated age at death puts his birth in the last years of Amenhotep III.

Quote:
Since Tut was alive prior to Akhenaten dying/disappearing/abdicating/running-away-to-join-the-circus etc. KV35YL and Smenkhare must have been married/in-a-relationship when Akhenaten was still on the throne... given that Akhenaten, by right, 'probably' inheritted the harem, which included his sisters prior married to his father (AIII, including Sitamun, Iset and possibly Henuttaneb), then is it more likely that KV35YL should be identified as; (possibly Henuttaneb) Nebtah or Beketaten?


Personally my money's on Beketaten as she is the only daughter of Amenhotep III attested to have been at Akhetaten.

Quote:
I have read that some people consider Nebtah and Beketaten to be the same person, is there any truth to this? - there is also the old posit that Meritaten was the daughter of AIII, is this theory current or proven wrong?


Nebetah could have been Beketaten, having assumed an Atenist name to please her brother. It is highly unlikely that Meritaten was the daughter of anybody but Akhenaten. The old idea would require a long co-regency and Akhi to be impotent.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
freeTinker
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Posts: 397
Location: USA - Northeast

PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
Personally my money's on Beketaten as she is the only daughter of Amenhotep III attested to have been at Akhetaten.


I can relate to that- the only bug in my head about it would be based on the finding of the carnelian plaque on which Henuttaneb's name was enclosed in a cartouche. There again, whose to say Henuttaneb/Beketaten/whoever did not die prior to Smk becoming king for a day- in fact the evidence might actually support such a posit. Would the estimated age of KV35YL support this?

Thx
_________________
Est modus in rebus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
freeTinker
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Posts: 397
Location: USA - Northeast

PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


_________________
Est modus in rebus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

freeTinker wrote:
Meretseger wrote:
Personally my money's on Beketaten as she is the only daughter of Amenhotep III attested to have been at Akhetaten.


I can relate to that- the only bug in my head about it would be based on the finding of the carnelian plaque on which Henuttaneb's name was enclosed in a cartouche. There again, whose to say Henuttaneb/Beketaten/whoever did not die prior to Smk becoming king for a day- in fact the evidence might actually support such a posit. Would the estimated age of KV35YL support this?

Thx


According to the JAMA article KV35 YL is between 25 and 35.
The original estimate by Smith has her age at less than 25.
And she may have been as young as 16 according to some estimates based on x-rays.

If she really was rather young when she died then she must have been born sometime towards the end of Amenhotep III's reign (assuming no or very short coregency)

If she could be near 30 when she died, then she was a (by Egyptian standard) adult woman when Akhenaten came to the throne.

The age issues are a real problem here. Both KV55 and KV 35YL have such widely varying age estimates that it becomes hard to get a sense of when they were born and how old they may have been at certain key events (Like the time Akhenaten came to the throne).

If she was really only a teen at the time of her death then that would point more to Baketaten or Nebetah. If she was a bit older (early twenties) then Henuttaneb, or (still) Nebetah?

After reading Kate P.'s blog I'm more inclined to believe KV 55 is Smenkhare, KV 35 YL is one of the younger princesses (Nebetah or Baketaten). And I am inclined to think they both died in their late teens or early twenties.
But there is enough confusion that I cannot rule out other possibilities. (Akhenaten and Kiya? Akhenaten and one of his younger sisters? Smenkhare and a niece? )
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
khaemweset
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 17 Feb 2010
Posts: 17
Location: New York City

PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
According to the JAMA article KV35 YL is between 25 and 35.
The original estimate by Smith has her age at less than 25.
And she may have been as young as 16 according to some estimates based on x-rays.

If she really was rather young when she died then she must have been born sometime towards the end of Amenhotep III's reign (assuming no or very short coregency)

If she could be near 30 when she died, then she was a (by Egyptian standard) adult woman when Akhenaten came to the throne.

The age issues are a real problem here. Both KV55 and KV 35YL have such widely varying age estimates that it becomes hard to get a sense of when they were born and how old they may have been at certain key events (Like the time Akhenaten came to the throne).

If she was really only a teen at the time of her death then that would point more to Baketaten or Nebetah. If she was a bit older (early twenties) then Henuttaneb, or (still) Nebetah?


That makes sense.
Was it Henuttaneb or Nebetah (or both?) whose name was found in a cartouche? I can't remember where I read that. I think it was that her name was in a cartouche but she didn't have the title of king's wife.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm starting to seriously wonder if KV55 as Akhenaten and KV35YL is Nebeta = Kiya.

The "k" in Kiya is very close to the"neb" in Nebeta.
And Kiya has as her title Greatly Beloved wife of the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Living on Truth, Lord of the Two Lands (Neferkheperure Waenre)| the beautiful child of the living Aten who shall be living for ever and ever, Kiya.

This title is unique to her and the part: the beautiful child of the living Aten makes me wonder if the Living Aten is a reference to Amenhotep III. He after all became the defied Aten after year 30 of his reign. And the child of the Living Aten would then declare her to be a daughter of Amenhotep III.

I wonder Akhenaten came to the throne a minor. I think his mother Queen Tiye, based on an age of ealry 50s at death had her children somewhat later in the reign of Amenhotep III. I think Akhenaten was possibly only 12 or so when he inherited the throne. One reason for thinking that is that some of the early correspondence from foreign rulers was addressed to Tiye. Which may very well point to a (short) regency. In the very early inscriptions (tomb of Ramose) Akhenaten first appears with his mother Tiye, and only a bit later with his then wife Nefertiti.

My guess is that his older sisters (Sitamen, Isis, Henuttaneb) may have died and that the younger ones were not old enough to fulfill the ceremonial roles and were not ready to start a family, hence the marriage to his cousin Nefertiti (working with the theory here that Nefertiti was the daughter of Aye and so a cousin of Akhenaten).

I wonder if the year 3 or so sed festival was a celebration of his 15th birthday. These festivals usually are associated with the 30th year, but Hatshepsut had one when she had been Queen for 15 years. I wonder if he just made it a b-day celebration Very Happy

His naming himself Akhenaten would then coincide with his 16th b-day and would be an act upon reaching majority in AE?

Kiya seems to be attested in years 6-11 in Amarna. It could be that upon majority for a girl (12 or so?) she was married to her brother.

Kiya bears a son Tutankhamen and is soon after that murdered. Possibly buried in the royal tomb in Amarna?

In this hypothetical outline Akhenaten would have died at age ca 29 or so. That may just be possible and agree with some of the age astimates. With the markers tested before the Hawass team looked at KV55 he was thought to be in his early 20s. Maybe the truth lies somewhere between the early twenties and the late thirties?

Just some thoughts ....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
freeTinker
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Posts: 397
Location: USA - Northeast

PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
I'm starting to seriously wonder if KV55 as Akhenaten and KV35YL is Nebeta = Kiya.
I think Hawass just joined your fan club!

There's been lots written about 'kiya' possibly being a foreign name or a pet name or foreign pronunciation (perhaps under this, of Nebtah). Ay, Yuya, Tuya etc. (there are a lot of ya's in the names) are there any clues within these names that could point to a geographical/cultural source?

anneke wrote:
Kiya bears a son Tutankhamen and is soon after that murdered.
How sound are the findings that the trauma wounds (KV35YL) were inflicted before or as cause of death? The information seems scant and I am surprised more was not made about it- heck! murder sells! - As a follow up, how sound is the information about her having the bent arm, do we know?
_________________
Est modus in rebus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

freeTinker wrote:
anneke wrote:
I'm starting to seriously wonder if KV55 as Akhenaten and KV35YL is Nebeta = Kiya.
I think Hawass just joined your fan club!

There's been lots written about 'kiya' possibly being a foreign name or a pet name or foreign pronunciation (perhaps under this, of Nebtah). Ay, Yuya, Tuya etc. (there are a lot of ya's in the names) are there any clues within these names that could point to a geographical/cultural source?


I wonder if Kiya may not be a pet name. The "K" in Kiya is I think a knife? But it looks a lot like the bowl used to write the "Neb" but with an extra "loop" on it. It's mentioned that "Kiya" may mean something like "monkey" (an affectionate name?) I wondered if the Nebet part was turned into the "Ki". It's a bit of a stretch Smile, but the "child of the living Aten" made me wonder about her being a daughter of Amenhotep III. That part really set me off thinking about Kiya as a daughter of Amenhotep III. And if she is KV35YL then she would be a daughter of Tiye as well.

I think it was Aldred who suggested that Tiye/Tey was a nickname for Nefertari, Huy for Amenhotep, and maybe Raia for Ramose? So I think these short names may just be shorter versions of longer ones?

I am now completely speculating: Yuya/Yey/Ay for Ahmose? Tiye/Tey/Tiaa for Nefertari? Huy/Huya for Amenhotep?

The name Nebeta/Kiya is pure speculation. She could just be yet another daughter.

freeTinker wrote:
anneke wrote:
Kiya bears a son Tutankhamen and is soon after that murdered.
How sound are the findings that the trauma wounds (KV35YL) were inflicted before or as cause of death? The information seems scant and I am surprised more was not made about it- heck! murder sells! - As a follow up, how sound is the information about her having the bent arm, do we know?

I thought that it was clear that the wounds to the head were the cause of death. They are not post-mortem I think.
That does leave the possibility of either a massive accident or murder. Unless she like her son was rather accident prone and both had a serious chariot accident? (Lousy drivers?)

I'm not sure about the bent arm. I thought it was not quite 100% clear which arm(s) belonged with this mummy? I would have to read up on that one.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 4 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group