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food for thought
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Kharis
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As someone who is interested in AE history but does not have a science or genetics background, this discussion, plus the article by KP is fascinating and definitely educational.

I look forward to further discussions.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sobek wrote:
.... At each position each child must receive one and only one allele from each parent. ... Did you also take the time to trace alleles from KV35m and KV35EL to OS35; and from OS35 and OP21 to KV35YL? I have done this, and I think paths are there. If the paths are there, then KV35YL may be a child of KV35m and KV35EL or a grandchild of KV35m and KV35YL by their child OS35 and OP21. That is all the DNA data and genetic kinship analysis can tell you. If anyone sees an allele that does not follow these paths, please tell me. I know I make mistakes, and if I have, I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT IT.


I have looked at the DNA profiles and I agree that it is possible that KV35m (Amenhotep III) and KV35EL (Tiye) are the parents of KV55 (maybe Smenkhare) and OS35 (Akhenaten). It is possible that OS35 (Akhenaten) and OP21(Nefertiti) are the parents of KV35YL (Meritaten in this scenario) and KV21A (possibly Ankhesenamun).
Normally I think assuming that a sister and a niece would have very similar DNA profiles would be a weak point in the theory, but in this case with Nefertiti possibly being related to Yuya and Tuya it's all possible.

There is a probability of ca 50 % that siblings share about half the alleles or more. If Ay and Tiye are really brother and sister than they could have had more than half of their DNA profile in common. And so could Smenkare and AKhenaten (assuming they were brothers). That means that there could have been some significant overlap between a hypothetical sister of Akhenaten and Smenkhare and a daughter of Akhenaten.

Genetically identifying KV55 and KV35YL as brother and sister is a more "obvious" conclusion if one assumes no inbreeding. With inbreeding the identification of the pair as uncle and niece becomes more plausible.
I have seen nothing that would disprove this hypothesis, but with Akhenaten and Nefertiti's bodies missing in this scenario it would be very hard to really show it's true. I think only mitichondrial DNA could clear up the issue.
If KV35YL is a sister of KV55, then she is the daughter of Tiye and grand-daughter of Tuya. If she's Nefertiti's daughter then she is not a female descendant of Tuya (unless Aye married his full sister)

My problem is that there is evidence that Smenkhare married Meritaten, but there is no real evidence that Nefertiti was the daughter of Aye, and there is no evidence Aye is the son of Yuya. That's two major assumptions.
Those relationships are all based on the similarities of titles, and not much else.

I think that one could equally well theorize that Smenkhare married a sister, had a son Tut with her. This sister was then murdered and Meritaten took on the role of step-mother. There is no more or less proof for this scenario as for any other.

I think it leaves us with at least 4 theories:
1. KV55 is Smenkhare, KV35YL is his sister
2. KV55 is Smenkhare, KV35YL is his niece Meritaten
3. KV55 is Akhenaten (younger than usually assumed?) and KV35YL is his sister.
4. KV55 is another son of Amenhotep III and Tiye who married his sister

... And I can probably construct more if given enough time Very Happy

It would be really interesting to see the DNA profiles of Tuthmosis IV and Amenhotep II as well. That may give a better idea of the amount of inbreeding. And mt-DNA would be very nice to have.

I wish they would have included the DNA profiles of the other mummies as well. What was the DNA profile of Tuthmosis II, of the alleged Hatshepsut? Of Sitra-In and the other male mummy?
Are there alleles that go all the way back to these early Tuthmosids?
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Diorite
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:


Genetically identifying KV55 and KV35YL as brother and sister is a more "obvious" conclusion if one assumes no inbreeding. With inbreeding the identification of the pair as uncle and niece becomes more plausible.
I have seen nothing that would disprove this hypothesis, but with Akhenaten and Nefertiti's bodies missing in this scenario it would be very hard to really show it's true. I think only mitichondrial DNA could clear up the issue.


Does anybody have a recording of the special? I just remembered something.

If I recall correctly, they said that mitochondrial DNA showed that KV35EL, KV35YL, and KV55 are the same, indicating they share a maternal line. That would rule out KV35YL being Meritaten unless Nefertiti was descended from the same maternal line - her being descended from Aye wouldn't do it.

Diorite
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it`s not absolutely necessairy to assume that Aye married his sister.
It`s also possible that only his wife was the daughter of Yuya and Tuya and he was otherwise related to her (cousin or else). Even if he wasn`t related to them at all he could have taken over Yuya`s titles and offices as his son-in-law and he would have been connected to the royal familyvia his parents-in-law and Nefertiti if one assumes she was his daughter.

It could also be that Aye was their son and his wife his cousin from his mother`s side. This would account for identical mtDNA between KV35YL, Tiye and Tuya via Nefertiti and her mother, the supposed first wife of Aye (in case there would ever be a successful testing showing their identical mtDNA, of course).
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Sobek
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the conclusions section of Phizackerley, 2010 condensed and rewritten in my own words:

1. The KV55 mummy is not Akhenaten.
2. The KV55 mummy is probably Smenkhkare.
3. There is a lineage from the KV35m and the KV35EL mummy to the KV62 fetuses that doesn't include KV55.
4. Akhenaten is on this lineage as a son.
5. There is a lineage from the KV46 mummies to the KV62 fetuses that doesn't include KV35EL.
6. Nefertiti is on this lineage as a granddaughter.
7. The KV21 mummies may be daughters of Akhenaten and Nefertiti.
8. The KV35YL mummy may be a daughter of Akhenaten and Nefertiti.

Most of the discussion of Phizackerley, 2010 has focused on conclusion 8., which is the least likely and important conclusion of Kate's article. Does this mean that everyone agrees with the other seven conclusions?
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Aromagician
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diorite wrote:

Does anybody have a recording of the special? I just remembered something.

If I recall correctly, they said that mitochondrial DNA showed that KV35EL, KV35YL, and KV55 are the same, indicating they share a maternal line. That would rule out KV35YL being Meritaten unless Nefertiti was descended from the same maternal line - her being descended from Aye wouldn't do it.

Diorite


I have had my mtna tested . Mtna doesnt mutate very often. So if you share mtna with someone ( depending on how many markers are tested), But they said it indicates you may share an ancestress with the other match within 700 years.

So in a small population the mtna could be very much the same for a lot of them. For instance, there is no point my mother or my daughter having theirs tested as the results would be exactly the same. I have matches in Japan and the Phillipines that I have no idea existed. So- how accurate can they be if testing just mtna?
I am not too familiar with alleles etc, just markers and haplogroups.
Does anyone here know the haplogroup for the ydna or the mtna? This shows the origins of the people.
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Aromagician
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is what it says on Family Tree DNA site

"How many generations back does it trace?

Because mtDNA is passed down from the mother intact in each generation, the answer is that the test can cover both recent and distant generations. On the recent side, the mtDNA Ancestral Origins section will point towards possible countries of origin for the recent ancestors. If you have few matches, this list will not be statistically representative, and you therefore will need to wait until more people are added to the database (several thousand are added every month). The mtDNA test also identifies the haplogroup, which represents your deep ancestral origins (think tens of thousands of years ago). A low resolution match means that you have about a 50% chance of sharing a common ancestor within the last 52 generations (about 1300 years), and a high resolution match reduces the figure to around 28 generations (about 700 years). "


https://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers/10.aspx#485
So I hope that isnt how they are defining the matches... I dont know a lot about other types of testng. Apparently YDNA mutates more frequently.
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