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Who was Neferneferaten?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
Lutz wrote:
Completely forgotten. Now, how fits your statement ...
Quote:
... Smenkhare Meritaten and Smenkhare Neferneferuaten in proper order of their successions to the throne. The daughter died before mother. ...

... to the inscription on the chest?

You're still with the inscription? ...

You did not answer my question. Admittedly, unsurprisingly ... But method? See my various questions in other threads ...

Quote:
... That you question the validity of Carter's notes is perfectly fine ...

I do not "question" them. His conclusions corresponded to the state of research of his time. But this state has developed and changed, we are writing the year 2019 ...
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maat
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did answer.
The scarab informs about the identities (supported by other references in the tomb that I have not presented).
I can't force whether you understand or agree. There are no published references for me to cite. I've offered the reference for consideration.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
I did answer.
The scarab informs about the identities (supported by other references in the tomb that I have not presented).
I can't force whether you understand or agree. There are no published references for me to cite. I've offered the reference for consideration.

No you did not. I did`nt ask anything about the scarab (what there is to say about this object, I said ...).

I asked for the inscription on the chest, and how the persons mentioned in it you bring in accordance with your statement:
Quote:
... Smenkhare Meritaten and Smenkhare Neferneferuaten in proper order of their successions to the throne. The daughter died before mother. ....

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not interested in the inscription because it is not relevant to me at this time and won't go hunting because that requires more time and effort than I think it's worth. I accept Carter's journal notes for reference.
Why is the inscription important?
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maat
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The references that demonstrate "The daughter died before mother" were inside the tomb. I am withholding that for now. I am not asking that you believe me without demonstration but I put the note forward to inform that references did exist.
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Montuhotep88
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
The references that demonstrate "The daughter died before mother" were inside the tomb. I am withholding that for now. I am not asking that you believe me without demonstration but I put the note forward to inform that references did exist.


"Hidden" references almost always turn out to be (a) nonexistent or (b) fraudulent.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
I'm not interested in the inscription ...

One of your main problems ...
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Montuhotep88 wrote:
maat wrote:
The references that demonstrate "The daughter died before mother" were inside the tomb. I am withholding that for now. I am not asking that you believe me without demonstration but I put the note forward to inform that references did exist.


"Hidden" references almost always turn out to be (a) nonexistent or (b) fraudulent.


A fraudulent claim doesn't benefit me or my credibility. I admit when and if I am wrong. It takes nothing from me and to waste people's time is petty.

Michael Talbot in The Holographic Universe (1992, p.46) notes:
"A hidden order is always expressed and is known (even if not understood)..."

If the reference is "hidden" in the tomb of Tutankhamun then you simply have not recognized it. I am not talking about magical or mystical elements. I've chosen to withhold the reference because there are other things that must first be demonstrated.
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Montuhotep88
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
I've chosen to withhold the reference because there are other things that must first be demonstrated.


Sorry; I'm not from Missouri, but the attitude is the same: "Show me."
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

maat wrote:
The references that demonstrate "The daughter died before mother" were inside the tomb. I am withholding that for now. I am not asking that you believe me without demonstration but I put the note forward to inform that references did exist.

There are sometimes references in plain view that are not recognized because we look with our eyes and see with our minds.

The staircase and steps within the tomb clearly show that Meritaten died before Nefertiti.

Does nobody else see and understand the constructed reference?

Consider that staircase and steps in the tomb.
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Royal Tomb at Amarna was never completed. What was completed was damaged deliberately to some extent, and it was then abandoned with some of the proposed occupants apparently moved to the VOK, if they have been reliably identified. Akhenaten's sarcophagus was smashed, and many of his shabti were left behind, and are now at the Cairo Museum and the Met in New York.

What is impossible to know is who was actually interred there and when. Aside from the king's chamber one suite was partially decorated, definitely for Meketaten who is named as deceased, and also for another royal female we don't have the name of. However, Meritaten is not one of them as she is shown as a princess, alive, and is named. Likewise Ankhensenpaaten and Neferneferuaten-tasherit. The youngest two daughters are not shown but that is not to say they were dead - they were just not shown. We can be pretty sure that Meritaten lived on at least until the end of Akhenaten's reign as she is named as a queen alongside both Neferneferuaten and Smenkhkare, usually with Akhenaten (objects from KV62, with Smenkhkare alone in the tomb of Meryre II). Ankhensenpaaten survived through Tutankhamun's reign. She has that name on material from Malkata as well as the small golden throne from KV62, where the name change to Ankensenamun was missed. It is possible but unlikely that Tut's queen was Ankhensenpaaten-tasherit, but that is a huge stretch given the sparse information about that princess. In any case, to address the point above, nothing in the Amarna royal tomb points to Meritaten's demise.

But - it is interesting that although we have evidence for Neferneferuaten reigning until year 3 (Thebes, Pairi inscripton) and referencing the cult of Amun, we have nothing of Meritaten after the named appearances alongside Akhenaten and that Meryre II depiction. It is plausible to me that Meritaten did die before Neferneferuaten - she is certainly not attested after the start of Tutankhamun's reign. It is of course possible that she was just relegated to minor status in the household but I feel this is unlikely. I say this because there is clear physical evidence that Neferneferuaten, Tutankhamun and Ankhensenamun (before and after the name change) spent time at Malkata Palace - but nothing naming Meritaten - a queen don't forget - has been found to date.
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maat
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
The Royal Tomb at Amarna was never completed. What was completed was damaged deliberately to some extent, and it was then abandoned with some of the proposed occupants apparently moved to the VOK".

Hello karnsculpture.

I suspect that the royal tomb at Amarna will be an ineresting beast to study amongst the tombs.

I have only glanced some few references for Amarna .
I don't think it "is impossible to know" who was actually interred there (if anybody).
I think it can be read if it was sufficiently documented.

The ancient Egyptians were excellent in documenting their works.

Their methods of documentation to provide information have been unexpected and certainly missed in many instances.

This is why I want to bring attention to the staircase for a constructed reference that I think should be recognized and considered at KV62.

The information that you've noted helps to give some context for the staircase as one informative construct that involves (is about) Meritaten.

Lutz sometime ago (2019?) had brought to my attention how the staircase of KV62 was structured because I had thought from Carter's excavation notes that he had entirely demolished the staircase.

I defer to Lutz who informed me that only the six lower steps were removed because they had been installed with mortar. The upper ten steps were (are) cut into the bedrock of the valley.

The six lower steps were necessarily removed by Carter to take large items out of the tomb.

Lutz had asserted the common position about the tomb.
It supposes that the lower six steps had been demolished in antiquity to bring large items into the tomb then rebuilt because the tomb was repurposed for the burial of Tutankhamun.

I disagreed but had also missed the constructed reference until a few weeks ago when I suddenly recognized it,

The names of individuals involved with and in the constructed reference were found by Carter on things buried like debris in the stairway.

The Constructed Reference

What I recognized is that there are sixteen steps in the staircase and each step represents a year in the reign of Akhenaten.

I am tempted to let my statement dangle awkwardly because it is good and necessary exercise to contemplate and reconcile that there are sixteen steps while the reign of Akhenaten was seventeen years.

Those who do not consider the reference will very likely miss, dismiss and reject the proposition.

The constructed reference is made whole by the fact that there are seventeen landings in the downward (and upward) directiion to bottom.

The analogy in the construct is that landings are as (years of kings) while the steps are as (years and queens).

I say kings (plural) because seventeen up and seventeen down in one staircase are as Amenhotep III and Akhenaten joined in kingship.

Amenhotep III can by this consideration be regarded to have had a reign of 34 years (or 37 if years reigned by his two daughters are included).

Years and Daughters as Steps

The steps represent years and the two females (Nefertiti and Meritaten) are represented by two groups of steps within the staircase.

The first ten steps that are cut into the bedrock symbolize the years of Nefertiti as primary queen and wife of Akhenaten.

But, she did bear Meritaten for her father before she was queen to her brother.

Then, her brother/husband and her daughter/sister bore Tutankhamun.

The staircase is a perfect analogy for the shared relationships.
The females, kingships and children are all represented.

Meritaten is then represented by the distinctly different section of six steps of stone blocks that were installed with mortar.

The stairs represent that ttone blocks are of bedrock as a daughter is of her mother.

They also show continuous lineage as from parents to children.

The installed steps indicate that Meritaten superceded the status or office of Nefertiti as primary queen (because Meritaten bore the next king Tutankhamun).

Consider the Years

Nefertiti in the archaeological record seems to disappear around year 12 of Akhenaten.

Tutankhamun must have been born about year 11 which displaced Nefertiti.

Meritaten by these references seems to have been in the primary position for six years.

Nefertiti resurfaced in reference in the archaeological record in year 16 wich seems to strongly coincide with the staircase references.

Inside the Tomb

I will skip some details to shorten this but the constructed reference continued inside the tomb where there are two 'seventeenth' steps that are cut into the bedrock.

The first is a partial step because it has a beveled front edge that slopes.
The step proceeds down into the sunken and chaotic annex chamber.

That partial step represents Meritaten like the 6 steps of 10 or of 16 in the staircase.

Her step into death brought chaos as represented by broken objects and ransack conditions found in the annex.

The second step that is also 17th is the step down into the burial chamber.

It has a square edge like the ten steps in the staircase that are also carved into bedrock.

Both final steps are the 17th because each female was a representative of or for Akhenaten (who was also their brother) .

Although dead, his reign continued through them to benefit the reign of Tutankhamun.

The step into the burial chamber represents Nefertiti.

Observe how her final step leads into an orderly space (not chaotic).

Ultinately, Tutankhamun in her care ascended to the throne.

Nefertiti did not die suddenly or unprepared.

The staircase tells about such and more.

It cootained several constructed references that wo with other references that ceruainly include myths, texts and inscriptions.

Consider the staircase in context with all that you know because the Egyptians did not write everything that needed to be known.

This does not mean that they did not record what needed to be known.

I am surprised that the staircase as a reference seems to have been missed because the involved information has fueled many discussions while the informative stairway was effectively in open view.
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maat
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Corrections to previous post:

Error: The stairs represent that ttone blocks are of bedrock as a daughter is of her mother.

Correction: The stairs represent that [stone] blocks are of bedrock as a daughter is of her mother.

Error: Ultinately, Tutankhamun in her care ascended to the throne.
Correction: [Ultimately], Tutankhamun in her care ascended to the throne.

Error: It cootained several constructed references that wo with other references that ceruainly include myths, texts and inscriptions.

Correction: It [contained] several constructed references that [work] with other references that [certainly] include myths, texts and inscriptions.
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SaintGermain
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Maat,

You should be aware that it is now known from a recently discovered inscription in a quarry at Deir el Hinnis that Nefertiti was still the chief queen in Year16 of Akhenaten. That is the penultimate year of his reign so it is very possible that Nefertiti outlived her husband. But more than ten years for her as queen.
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maat
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry. I don't understand what you mean in noting: "But more than ten years for her as queen."

Please clarify.
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